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yo yo jr Registered User (9/17/00 9:56:57 pm) Reply	yo yo ma & chicago I decided to go to the opening chicago symphony concert and Yo Yo Ma was playing the Lalo and Saint saens concertos with them. mmmmmmm mmmmm! I really like his new interpretation of the lalo. If anyone has heard him play it recently tell me how you liked it because I loved every second of it, but my father thought it was great for some places. Am i just hypnotized by the whole "yo yo ma experience"? Edited by: yo yo jr Edited by: 9/17/00 9:56:57 pm
Bob Registered User (9/18/00 6:43:59 am) Reply	Re: yo yo ma & chicago You and millions of others. Which is why the recent Cello Congress was such a good tonic for that condition. We got to see how his playing actually stacked up against the world's best.
Sopher Registered User (9/18/00 11:00:22 am) Reply	Yo-Yo Yo Just as another data point. I saw Yo-Yo play some Bach solos last week in Cleveland. He is the only solo celloist I have ever seen so I don't have much to compare him to. He was very talented - there were a (very) few minor intonation issues, and 2 or 3 times I believe he bumped a string unintentionally (I'm not familiar with these works but I'm pretty sure). Overall a wonderful performance (the acoustics at Severence Hall amaze me), although my 6 year old pronounced it BORING!
BA Registered User (9/19/00 3:23:26 am) Reply	Musings on our nation's misled youth (way long) Reading recent posts on this board by youthful and enthusiatic writers has lead me to ponder my own education and the happy accident that I was fortunate enough in my youth to have better musicians than myself direct my youthful enthusiams to recordings of Heifetz, Feuermann and other truly great artists. I still went through my stupid phases- wanting to play Shostakovich like a rock star, wanting to play Dvorak faster than any other human- but the grounding I was given guided my education. I wonder how I might have developed differently if I had grown up as many today have, not knowing a cellist before DuPre, wanting to emulate perhaps the most celebrated cellist ever, Yo-Yo Ma. In other words, what if someone had not tought me better? I wonder if others here had similar guidance- did you develop your taste strictly on your own or were you guided? And by whom? This has lead me to ponder what will come of this generation of musicians studying now. We may decry the exagerations and indulgences of instrumentalists like Nadja or Yo-Yo (whoever- that's not what this post is about)but they come from a generation that grew in the shadow of the golden age of string playing, with an awareness of what came before. What will come of those who subsequently grow up in their shadow? I wonder if we are not seing signs already... A young Finnish violinist played a Tchaikovsky concerto here in a manner so technically weak and musically and rhythmically distorted that it would have made Kennedy or Nadja seem conservative. It was not unmusical- it was unrecognizable. Fazil Say, a young pianist whose career has blossomed in recent years (YCA) played an easy Mozart concerto with music, wrong notes, wrong articulations, bizarre phrasing and a general performance standard that was shocking for a professional musician. Isolated incidents or are the cows coming home to roost? What about the dearth of conducting talent. Are we entering a musical dark age? (Or am I just staying up too late...) And yes, I know you can find so and so who is a counter example- I'm talking general trends here... Edited by: BA Edited by: 9/19/00 3:23:26 am
MsCheryl Registered User (9/19/00 7:35:14 am) Reply	Re: Musings on our nation's misled youth (way long) "conducting talent".... isn't that a good example of an oxymoron?
Ellen G Registered User (9/19/00 9:47:33 am) Reply	Re: Musings on our nation's misled youth (way long) Ah, the old-fashioned thought-provoking post. My favorite. Lots going on here. You guys were closer in age to these fabulous role models. Some of you studied with them. Now they are names on CD labels, with no visual associations for most people. And if you don't know of their existence in the first place, you are unlikely to see them taking prominent places in CD stores, and less likely to run into a performance on television or ferret out a video. The Cello Chat kids are exceptions, I would say. From what I see of a lot of kids, they go to lessons and return, with very little interest in the rich heritage of their instrument. It's an activity, not a passion. And the visual is SO IMPORTANT for appreciating this. Watching Feuermann, Casals, DuPre, Piatigorsky, Miller is incredibly stimulating. When one has the rare opportunity to do so. (hint hint) The conductors of the youth orchestras are met with blank stares when they throw out a remark in rehearsal, "Heifetz wouldn't have been happy with that..." Whose fault is it? Not sure. The most you can hope for is someone raises their hand and says, "Excuse me, but who is Heifetz?" Another aspect is the natural evolution of things. Bach into Mozart into Beethoven into ----- Schoenberg???? The need to reinvent the wheel, express boredom with the previous 100 years of music? Who knows. Another nother aspect is changing attitudes in society. More of a tendency to challenge WHY should I do this, or who says this is the RIGHT way. So you can say to someone, "Mozart should be played like this." You need a student who (1) has an ear to hear the difference in what he's playing and what you're demonstrating (2) who agrees with you (3) who cares enough to adapt because next week he'll be playing some other piece anyway and this won't matter...
DanK Registered User (9/19/00 10:17:42 am) Reply	musings on...... Why are you so sure that you were taught the "right way" so much better than those younger then you? You write with the same conviction that those you are complaining about do. Perhaps it is up to each individual to discover what truly means something to them, instead of them being led to form an opinion based on what is great to others.
David Sanders Registered User (9/19/00 1:56:21 pm) Reply	Re: musings on...... I think he is sure he was taught the "right way", and so much better than those younger than him, is because the artists of the first 60 years of the century were far superior to those of the last 20-40 years. I think his point is that an individual can't discover what is really great if he doesn't have some guidance and example.
Paul Tseng ICS Staff Administrator (9/19/00 2:26:32 pm) Reply	Re: Musings on our nation's misled youth (way long) I have to admit that I was a huge Yo Yo Ma fan when I first began the cello. But I was fortunate enough to have had such a love for music more so than any particular cellist. I think we all go through phases as young people. We somehow idealise a musician (for whatever personal reason) and feel so convicted that this musician is THE standard by which all others are to be compared. Sure, we find objective sounding reasons that make perfect sense to us in our arguments with others. But ultimately it boils down to who we choose to be the standard that we compare ourselves to and strive to emulate or at least learn from. Along with this we do a lot of cutting down of musicians who are very different. Rose camp hates Starkers sound Staker Camp hates Rostropovich's interpretations Fuermann camp....thinks everyone else is sub standard and have lost their way. The above gerneralizations are just my observations and impressions. I went through my Yo Yo phase, Rose Phase, Rostropovich phase, etc, and for each phase I couldn't see the value in other cellist's playing. But now I've come to accept their differences. Sure, I still ahve very strong opinions about how music should be played (remember the Brahms F major post?) but I can now listen to other cellists and find many good qualities in them that I wouldn't mind having. Yo Yo is not my favorite cellist now, but I still love his early Haydn Concerto, his Kreislerand Beethoven recordings. And he plays a lot better than I do (though I'd probably choose to play things differently) I still love Slava's sound the most and his interpretation of many big romantic and modern works the most, but his Bach is NOT my favorite. That said, I am still totally in awe of Starker's Locatelli, Popper, Boccherini, etc. I haven't heard enough of Fuermann's to say that anything he's recorded is my favorite. Well, his Zigunerweisen is unbelieveable, though. I don't dispute he was a world class artist, but he's just not my favorite. As for Heifetz, I love his Beethoven, Tchaikovsky and Brahms Concertos, but there are many other violinists whose playing I like more in general (like Gingold, Rabin, Some of us never quite get out of our "....phase" and that's ok. It's just a matter of taste, I guess. BA, it sounds to me that you are still in your Fuermann stage, which is totally cool. As for young people, well....as I said, everyone goest through their phases. Ultimately we find our own voices and the are comprised of the best influences we "choose" to incorporate or be influenced by. Some people will never get out of their Yo Yo phase as you and I may never get out of our Fuermann and Rostropovich phases (respectively). I developed my "tastes" strictly on my own. My Yo Yo phase was met with a lot of snickering by one of my early cello teachers who studied with Rose. After getting out of theat phase, I started to listen to many other cellists and came to my own conclusions, not letting anyone "teach me better" in terms of who to like. But if your point is that we need to have a bigger selection than Yo Yo or Sonnenberg or Kennedy. I agree whole heartedly. I just think that there are more cellists who fit the "superior" label than Fuermann or Heifetz. I'm a bit surprised at anyone decreeing what BA says as being "The Right Way". It's ok to feel that convinced, it's just kind of surprising coming from certain people who seem so much more "objective" on other issues. Paul Tseng, Cello Chat Administrator Today's Quote My Website MP3! The San Diego Cello Society Edited by: Paul Tseng ICS Staff at: 9/19/00 2:26:32 pm
Cellochick Registered User (9/19/00 3:49:39 pm) Reply	Shadows on the wall of the cave... Okay, I know I'm going to get viciously beaten for this, b/c I'm such a novice...but I couldn't resist. These posts caused me to muse on the philosophies of Plato, esp. the shadows on the wall of the cave, the world of ideas, etc. Perhaps, somewhere out in a nebulous cloud that holds all of life's answers, there is an "ideal cellist" who displays those perfect qualities we strive for. Or maybe this cellist exists in our own minds, and we recognize him/her (it?) in the great players, who are reflections - shadows, if you will - of The REAL Cellist. Just some thoughts from a badly trembling caffeine junkie.
Laura Wichers Registered User (9/19/00 3:50:46 pm) Reply	Re: From a mislead youth. When I was young (don't you all feel old now?), up until freshman year of high school, the only cellists I knew about were Ma, Rostropovich, and Harrell. The names Starker and Rose might have been somehow connected to cellists, but I don't remember for sure. I had no idea that Feuermann, Heiftetz, Kreisler, Bylsma, Isserlis, or anyone else existed. The cello recordings that my family had were all Yo-Yo Ma, mainly because his recordings were/are everywhere. The main source of information about these cellists has been the ICS. Without it, I highly doubt I would know about many of these past/current performers. My teachers up until high school were more concerned with teaching technique than talking to me about performers, and to be honest, I don't think that many freelance musicians have the time to keep up to date on the cello talent. Now I have all sorts of cellists in my recording collection, which like Ellen's, is growing bigger every day while my bank account dwindles. Thanks David and Gary! I am amazed at how many of my peers have never heard of many of these cellists. They are missing out on a large part of their education. IMO, learning about different musicians and musical ideas is almost entirely the responsibility of the student, not the teacher. I am continually amazed at the infatuation people have with Ma. Yes, he is a fine cellist, but he is not the best or the only world-class cellist around today. A few days ago, several of the cellists from my school went to Cleveland to hear him perform Bach. When they returned and I didn't really want to know about the concert, they were astonished. "But it's Yo-Yo Ma!" Yeah, so? I'm still hearing Gutman's Schelomo, Starker's Dvorak, and Hoffman's Gebirtig from the Congress. And the Bylsma Bach Suites!! And the Isserlis Haydn C!! Let's not forget Feuermann's Dvorak or Rose's Lalo. There are so many other artists that I'd much rather listen to; I only wish I could have heard more of them live. I do appreciate the publicity that Ma has generated for cello and classical music, though it is unfortunate that his name is the only one you ever hear in connection with them. -Laura
zambocello Registered User (9/19/00 4:22:13 pm) Reply	re: musings Tastes are determined by what is available. What's available is determined by the big record labels. Yo-Yo is hugely gifted and deserves his success, which Sony has turned into a near monopoly of the cello rack in the CD store. (Yes, I know that's an exageration.) But is it any wonder that youngsters and others with limited experiences idolize Yo Yo above all others? It's marketing at work. On the other hand, I'm hesitant to buy into the "things were better back when" line of thought. It's pervasive in all kinds of disciplines, but is it really true? How can we make comparisons? Of course it's not fair to compare Feurmann's recordings with a contemporary cellist's one-night stand. In 100 years will Feuermann's recordings really seem head and shoulders above the best recordings from the turn of the millenium? I doubt it. They will both be excellent (and quaintly old fashioned.) I believe the relative dearth of big time talent is due to expansion of the classical music business. In the first 1/2 of the 20th century the classical music business happened in western Europe and the east coast of the USA, now it's world wide. While the supply of major-league and minor-league talent has grown to meet and exceed the demand, the supply of "stars" has not expanded at the same rate and is therefore spread out over a larger field. We simply don't hear and see the top-shelf stars as often.
Bobbie Registered User (9/19/00 4:44:01 pm) Reply	Negativism This is the kind of thread that really gets my blood boiling. Someone posts that he or she loved the performance of a particular cellist. Great! There's nothing wrong with one's musical taste if they like Yo Yo Ma. The original poster didn't say "I don't care what anyone else says, Yo Yo is the best," but even if he had, that's an opinion he has a right to have. He wouldn't be alone in that opinion. But the post wasn't about who was the best. It was about enjoying a performance by a world-class cellist, and one I'd have loved to have heard. I haven't had the opportunity to hear Yo Yo Ma live, though I've heard several other well-known cellists. I like to hear about what Ma is doing and what he is performing. But every time someone posts anything about enjoying someone's performance, the rest of you (and you all know who you are) jump in and criticize his taste or his musical judgment or lack of experience. Is it really so difficult to believe that some of us could enjoy more than one cellist? Do we have to have favorites? And does having a favorite mean all the rest are bad? At the moment my favorite ice cream flavor is Chocolate Heath Bar Crunch. But my daughter won't eat anything but French Vanilla. I didn't make her order something chocolate because to do otherwise is a waste of calories and money. And I didn't say, "I don't know how you can eat that crab- it looks like pig slobber." The store isn't called "One great flavor and thirty-one mediocre flavors." It's okay for us to enjoy more than one flavor-- in ice cream and in cellists. I'd like to see us behave more like a community of friends and fellow enthusiasts. Next time you read a post like the top one here, try responding with, "That's great! I'm glad you got to hear him and I'm glad you enjoyed it," and don't offer an opinion unless you are asked. But please, please don't make fellow ICS'ers feel bad because they happen to enjoy hearing a fine performance by an unquestionably talented cellist just because he isn't YOUR favorite. Bobbie Mayer
Laura Wichers Registered User (9/19/00 5:09:43 pm) Reply	Re: Negativism Did you read the original post? Yo Yo Jr did ask "am i just hypnotized by the whole 'yo you ma' experience." Everyone who responded was answering Yo Yo Jr's question. I do not think that anyone has even suggested that we should only listen to one cellist. Quite the opposite. Every single person who responded to the original post discussed how many other cellists there are to enjoy. No one said that Yo Yo Jr was wrong for enjoying Ma's performance. No one criticized his musical judgement or lack of experience. What they DID write was what the other options are, and relate a bit about their own musical ideals at different times in their lives. -Laura
Melyoyo3 Registered User (9/19/00 5:55:35 pm) Reply	insight I just want to thank all the "older" people for their insight. I do admit I am a huge Yo Yo fan. I don't think I have given others (cellists) a chance. You've motivated me to become familiar with all the great cellists at a young age. Or at least I think 18 is young. It's better late than never. Thanks to everyone for their comments. You've helped me see in a different light.
Bobbie Registered User (9/19/00 7:20:09 pm) Reply	Re: Negativism I read the original post, and I just read it again. I know these responses aren't vicious in nature. But I still think the tone of the replies was along the lines of "When you have a more mature outlook you won't like Yo Yo Ma anymore." I think this attitude is condescending and that it will make people feel bad about liking someone who is an excellent cellist. Hypnotized by the Yo Yo Ma experience? Of course. The ability to do that is one of the things that makes a great performer great. It doesn't mean the listener is indiscriminate or musically immature. It's great that we have the means to make a lot more people aware of all of the wonderful cellists who are out there. It's amazing to go to Tower Records and look at just the number of different recordings of the Bach Suites that are available. I'm not arguing with any of that. I just don't think one has to choose one cellist at the expense of another. Edited by: Bobbie at: 9/19/00 7:20:09 pm
Tracie Price Registered User (9/19/00 8:25:33 pm) Reply	Hmmmmm Yo-Yo makes people love the cello. More power to him in that respect. I have a lot of mixed feelings about threads like this. Old school vs. new. On one hand I fully appreciate the greats of the past- staring in wonder at Piatigorsky's bowing on video, listening entranced to a Feuermann recording and then lamenting the tragic early end to his life.... etc. I really wonder about the "there will never be anyone as great as ________" philosophy though. It's not all that productive to compare then and now I don't think. Life is different now. Back then, they didn't have this huge library of recordings of great cellists to contend with. I mean, now people have to try to interpret the music thoughtfully in respect to things like new research into musicology, the great traditions of the past, the recording of so-and-so that came out last week, the "definitive" recording by _____ great cellist... and on and on. In a vacuum you may think some of those things shouldn't influence interpretation, but in reality, they do. If everyone has heard a passage performed in a similar way from countless recordings for 50 years, and you as a soloist do some studying and find that you don't agree, you will naturally be jumped upon by people who expect to hear it as it has been played for 50 years. Your interpretation is ridiculous and absurd to them. In 1930, how many different versions of a piece were people familiar with? Did people say "Oh, you should play that the way Klengel did." Well, times change. Any recording from 60-70 years ago will tell you that. Listen to some Elgar conducted by Elgar. It makes you think "What the heck is he doing!?" But then, that was the accepted style. Ugh, sorry for the awful rambling. To me live performance is such a huge part of the joy of music, and unfortunately, we can never experience so many of these "greats" in a live setting. People, especially young people, are going to be more influenced by live performances that move them, than they are by a recording that sounds scratchy and out of date. This isn't their fault. And it doesn't indicate the downfall of music as we know it. I believe the youth of today are every bit as capable of greatness as those of the past. You may never hear another Feuermann, but why would you want to? Even back then, how many "greats" were there at any given time? Only a very few. Just like now. Sure, there will never be anyone who plays like Feuermann. But there will be people who bring just as much to their playing as he did, but in a different way. I'm really having a hard time explaining my view. All well. Finally, I have no favorite cellist, but I can honestly say that my favorite violinist of all time IS alive today- Gil Shaham. True, he's no Heifetz. And Heifetz was no Shaham. Both great. Different. I finally got to see Shaham live last year, after many years of being thwarted, and what I came away with was that he really loved what he was doing. He cared about it. Besides all the flawless technical stuff, beautiful golden tone, great musicality... there is something gained from a live performance that you can't get from a recording. And I don't think it's fair to expect people to keep thinking that the "greats" of the past are so far above everyone today when we can't go hear them live and judge for ourselves. Sure we can appreciate them and admire their playing and hold them in the highest regard, but music is a live art form to me and what's wrong with gaining some spirit and excitement from live performances of today? Jeez that was really incoherent. Sorry. I'll go away now. Best wishes to all Tracie
zambocello Registered User (9/19/00 10:33:34 pm) Reply	musings This is a great thread. (Much better than Fascists vs. baby killers!) I've read old is better/worse than new and preferences within old or new, with rational/intuitive reasons all around. I love it. My favorite cellists are the ones I don't really notice. When things are going well (to my tastes) I notice the composer very much. (Since we're using Yo Yo to bash on: )That's why Yo Yo is not always my favorite cellist; I get distracted by his personal way of playing and interpreting.
BA Registered User (9/21/00 2:24:32 am) Reply	Clarifying- or so we hope Thank you all for your considered responses. It was not my intention to belittle anyone's musical taste- only to open a conversation between those who understand that there can be interpretations which are diferent but both logical, grammatical and beautiful, and that their can also be interpretations which are hamstrung by careless musical and technical habits and are lacking in aspects of musical grammar and structure. These performances are not 'different flavors' they are just bad. But it takes a high degree of sophistication (of which I can claim only a small amount) and many years of experience to begin to understand the difference, and no degradation of those who do not was intended. Yes. I show the same degree of conviction as the young writers, but I can tell you exactly why in a detailed technical and musical sense. This is the difference. If you want to know nore of what and why I am saying this please read an example of a more detailed analysis at www.cello.org/theses/smith/chap2.htm I don't prefer the artists of the previous generation because they are dead- but because they were good. (Tracie, I too am a big fan of Gil's and have been fortunate to be a friend and occasional collaborator for several years. As he prepares to record the Brahms concerto, for an example, it is the recordings of Heifetz, Oistrach Millstein etc that he listens to. It is little wonder that his playing is free from most of the modern 'habits') Neither do I find any artist to be all things to all repertoire. However compare recordings of less famous players such as Garbosouva, Nelsova, Cassado with the majority of the modern recordings. Regardless of technical perfection or not, they clearly show a radically diferent approach to the music. Overall, something is very different in the last twenty or thirty years. And it is not just a question of taste- a phrase can be pulled but not broken. A phrase can also be pulled to the point where it actually is broken. There is a MUCH larger degree of rubato in modern performances. Not all tempos work eqully well in conveying the line. Overall, tempos have grown continually slower over the last century. And there is an epidemic of careless vibrato, accentuation, swells and other details which interfere with the phrase. No 'taste' or 'phase' explains these things away. Perhaps Zambocello is on to somthing with the depletion of the talent pool, but comparing the great violinists of 40 years ago to those of today, it is not that there are the same number, spread further between, it is that something is, in most cases, fundamentally different in the approach. In my life I was extremely lucky to grow up listening to Heifetz, hearing artists like Rose and Sammy Mayes play in my parent's house, studying with Nelsova,etc.. It is only because of this lucky exposure that I have learned to understand the little that I do today. If we as cellists want to move our art forward we must understand the true details of how other cellists perform and interpret and not allow ourseles the luxury of defining any performer or performance as all 'good' or 'bad' based purely on overall impulsive reaction. There is after all a craft to creating art. Best wishes to all. Edited by: BA at: 9/21/00 2:24:32 am
Bob Registered User (9/20/00 6:35:41 am) Reply	Bravo Despite some problems with his own "grammer," BA has given us one of the best posts I've ever seen on CC, and I've been here from its inception. Marshall, don't fail to archive this!!!!
Sopher Registered User (9/20/00 7:14:08 am) Reply	Musical Snobbery BA, Musical snobbery is hideous, no matter how well-dressed in technicalities it is, but I'm sure that I just haven't studied and "collaborated" with the past masters enough to recognize the error of my ways. Please advise where I can purchase a plaster cast of your feet so that I can lick it every day to raise my musical awareness to an acceptable level. The trouble with old musical farts is that they live too long and they spend most of their latter years moaning about the "new ways" that they are too set in their ways to even attempt to understand. You might want to step into the 21st century some time! Sopher