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Tim Janof Registered User (9/25/00 2:47:03 pm) Reply	Musical Snobbery If one happens to believe that great classical music is simply much greater than great rock/popular music, does this make one a snob, perceptive, or just stupid for trying to compare the two?
ruthann Registered User (9/25/00 2:54:05 pm) Reply	Perceptive cello_suttonr@hotmail.com
mcello Registered User (9/25/00 3:10:58 pm) Reply	Definately Perceptive! I believe its like the difference between a gormet meal or having a light snack.
Paul Tseng ICS Staff Administrator (9/25/00 3:22:10 pm) Reply	Re: Musical Snobbery I don't know...if one tries to label someone as stupid, perceptive or a snob for making a generalization then what do you label THAT person? Good music is good music. Edward Bilous (and award winning composer and theory teacher at MSM and Juilliard) used to play us sections of "Hey Jude" by the Beatles and show us how the harmonic progressions were really good. I don't think that Lennon and McCartney were classically trained were they? Some things are quantifiable, but most things are still subjective. In answer to Tim's question. What makes a person a snob, perceptive or stupid has as much to do with the attitudes and intentions they have when they express their beliefs as it does with the data they use to substantiate their assertions. Paul Tseng, Cello Chat Administrator Today's Quote My Website MP3! The San Diego Cello Society
sarah schenkman Registered User (9/25/00 4:37:59 pm) Reply	Musical Snobbery Lennon and McCartney were not classically trained, but they had lots of input from George Martin on their recordings. I like many different kinds of music and don't stop to make value judgements when I'm enjoying something - I'll just "let it be". I agree with Paul about most things being subjective.
G M Stucka Registered User (9/25/00 4:52:13 pm) Reply	Re: Musical Snobbery I guess I'm probably a snob. I do love some non-Classical music like SOME jazz and a few pop tunes. But I'm sorry, I've never encountered something that I would refer to as "sublime" in any of these other musical art forms and I genuinely feel sorry for those who miss out on having that experience.
Ellen G Registered User (9/25/00 5:14:37 pm) Reply	Re: Musical Snobbery I reread this post and my tenses are all jumbled. I apologize. Read for content, not grammar, please. It's a higher level of understanding, I think. I listened to music for years but didn't hear what I'm hearing now. It's not my cello lessons that made the difference. It's the ensemble work with a coach, the orchestra rehearsals with different conductors. Sometimes I was sitting as an observer, others I was participating. And most of them haven't been heavy-hitting pros like some of you people have studied with. One is a violinist/conductor who works with youth orchestras in here and Boston, and also the Mozart Society at Harvard. Another is a cellist/conductor who chairs the music department at Union College. Two are vocal/conductors. One is a professional oboist with Seattle Symphony and NY Chamber something or other (sorry, Randall, I can't remember the group!!!). In each instance that person's knowledge is greater than my own, though probably disparate from one another's to some extent because of the nature of their training on their own instruments. It never occurred to me to view any of them as "right". It merely opened my eyes and ears to nuances in the music, inflections in articulation, depth of color and texture. Even someone singing "This is what you're doing" and "This is what you WANT to be doing" is that person's interpretation, but it illustrates differences, and that is critical to cultivating a sense of style. Not their style per se, just that they are making me AWARE of things to listen for. So I can see where the pros here would have incredible refinement and expectation when they listen. Years of lessons, master classes, performances, many with the world's best. Few of us who write here will ever have those experiences. While I am happy to benefit vicariously, I worry sometimes that they will abandon this place when they have to deal with such undeserved abuse. I am perhaps too sensitive about this issue because I've received so much help here from these guys. They've opened a new world to me. There are connoisseurs in wine, food, art, and in a lot of instances those at the pinnacle are regarded by those below as "snobs." Jealousy, lack of understanding, who knows? It is merely another level that some have chosen to elevate themselves to. I don't have to spend $80 a bottle to enjoy my wine, but I am unlikely to be happy with the $8.99 special. I like those Bully Hill labels, though.... My taste is refined to a point. I don't have the interest in delving into fine wines the way I do fine music. People who do, find complexity, detect things that elude me completely. It's a passion; they don't drink it but rather experience it. I believe music to be the same way. I listen to music (rock) that I used to listen to years ago, and I hear the same notes over and over and over. I listen to Mozart and Beethoven and I hear something new each time. To me they are masterpieces -- an epic novel v. People Magazine. Depends what you're looking for. As I age, I am looking for more. I'm finding the more I find, the more there is to find. Edited by: Ellen G at: 9/25/00 5:14:37 pm
Lissey Registered User (9/25/00 5:24:51 pm) Reply	Re Musical Snobbery I don't know -for me good music and bad music isn't held back by categories like pop/rock and classical. There's 'bad' classical just like there's 'good' pop. Also, there was some mention of the Beatles. Take Paul McCartney for instance - the pop songs are great, but I also love his Liverpool Oratorio. May not be Beethoven, but it's a different style, different era. Plus, I'm not always in the mood for classical. I guess different kinds of music are appropriate to different moods, different days - there's room for all types of music! (except heavy metal and hard rock - and if leaving those 2 out makes me a snob, heck, tough luck! )
sarah schenkman Registered User (9/25/00 6:03:02 pm) Reply	Musical Snobbery I grew up in a household where classical music was the only kind of music listened to. My parents, both musicians, had no interest in any other kind of music and I grew up playing quartets with them, watching my father conduct, playing in orchestra, seeing, hearing and meeting lots of excellent musicians and I've always had an appreciation for that. As I grew up I started listening to other kinds of music - became a huge Beatles fan. I still love the Beatles. I love listening to Junior Brown, Vassar Clements, Marvin Gaye, many more. Nowadays I still listen to classical music a lot, but if I'm sitting back having a beer and just want to relax, I'm listening to the Neville Brothers. It's farther removed from what I do for a living. And it's fun. I think there's definitely snobbism in assigning value judgments to different kinds of music. Don't think it's any better for fans of classical music to look down their noses at popular music than it is for fans of pop music to dislike classical.
Len Thompson Registered User (9/25/00 6:14:43 pm) Reply	Re: Re Musical Snobbery It's often stated "There is beauty in simplicity". I think the same can be stated for complexity. The only difference is that one must learn to understand the complex to see the beauty in it,and for certain the rewards are greater. I have been touched in my soul by both types of music, and I think that's the point, and the art of music. A true snob would probably disagree. I don't think that was anybody's intention. Perhaps those of us with a less mature level of listening should be more patient, and the more mature maybe can help us along gently. Else we clash! Len
Sopher Registered User (9/25/00 8:31:30 pm) Reply	Thanks Tim, et al. Thanks, Tim etc, for leading this discussion in a productive direction instead of leaving it as the useless mess it was becoming in the other thread. I owe you one! Sopher
MaryK Registered User (9/25/00 9:57:53 pm) Reply	Re: Thanks Tim, et al. Naaah, that's OK... MaryK
Laura Wichers Registered User (9/25/00 10:30:26 pm) Reply	Re: Musical Snobbery What a music snob (not me!) might say: Classical Music/ians Play REAL instruments. Work hard for many years and spend lots of money on schooling. Play REAL music, with more than three parts. Will always stand the test of time (Gregorian Chant, anyone?). Increases your brain's ability to think in concepts and do your calc homework. All that other junk and the people who play it. Play fake songs with three chords (Oh Louie, Louis! Ohh whoa, we gotta go now) Can't read music. Can't write music. Market an image and not a sound (hmmmm.... I suppose this crosses over) Everyone forgets about it/them in three years. Decreases your brain's ability to think in concepts and makes you flunk your calc exam. Man, I really need some sleep. Did I mention I'm emceeing for the McCain/Abraham bus tour tomorrow? Beddy bye oh beddy bye. zzzzzzz -Laura
zambocello Registered User (9/26/00 1:37:23 am) Reply	I'll make myself a target. While I have some snobbist tendencies I would rather listen to a random FM radio station that most anything by Tchaikovsky.
cellochris99 Registered User (9/26/00 4:01:18 am) Reply	Re: I'll make myself a target. Sometimes all I need is to hear a stratocastor wail away. I'm classically trained, but for me, good rock music still gets my blood flowing.
Tracie Price Registered User (9/26/00 4:28:46 am) Reply	Hooray! I agree! Tchaikovsky was a hack. (now I'm in trouble) (I'm ok with the violin concerto) I wanted to crush my skull last time I attended a concert w/the Little Russian Symphony on it. The last movement....guh! And now... a small Tchaik. story, which also shows what a musical snob I must be... I went with a friend to hear Slava w/the LA Phil back in December of 1998. On the program were Strauss' Five Songs, the Shostakovich 1st concerto, and Francesca di Rimini (did I spell that right?). A 19 or 20 year old acquaintance of my friend's was seated next to us, and was unmoved by both Gundula Janowitz's spellbinding Strauss (sure, she's past her prime, but still...) and Slava's profound Shostakovich (sure, he's past his prime, but still...). However, at the end of the Tchaikovsky, she was instantly on her feet applauding and cheering and exclaimed "Now THAT'S emotion!!" oooooo (I agree, the performance was outstanding.. but... the piece?) (After Janowitz and Slava?!?!?!) sigh. To each his own.
Tim Janof Registered User (9/26/00 12:11:05 pm) Reply	Gould slams the Fab Four Somebody sent us this quote a while back: "Theirs [the Beatles] is a happy, c ocky, belligerently resourceless brand of harmonic primitivism... In the Liverpudlian repertoire, the indulged amateurishness of the musical material, though closely rivaled by the indifference of the performing style, is actually surpassed only by the ineptitude of the studio production method. (Strawberry Fields suggests a chance encounter at a mountain wedding between Claudio Monteverdi and a jug band.)" -- Glenn Gould
SrPilha Registered User (9/26/00 12:28:39 pm) Reply	Snobbing Wait a minute: where do you draw the line between classical music and rock/pop? Is the Concerto for Group and Orchestra (John Lord - yep, the Deep Purple keyboard player, 1970) classical or rock? Is the Ars Antiqua de Paris repertoire (tavern songs and such from 13th to 15th centuries) classical or pop? Is Frank Zappa just a rock musician? What about Erki-Sven Tüür? Does it matter? I agree with some posts above: there's good music and bad music in every style. And I actually don't know if the whole point, when it comes to comparing pieces, is whether they are 'bad' - this is so subjective! Someone else said this on this thread too: the point is how much we can hear in a piece, how much is there to hear. This can become quite objective, and may help classify a piece as good or bad. But it doesn't mean we'll prefer a rationally good piece over a bad one. I teach musical appreciation, and this is just what I try to make everyone understand. Slayer is a very good group, when it comes to the style they've chosen. They're (one of) the best. But I really can't stand more than a minute of them. On the other hand, although I do think the Pixies are a good group, I think I've heard all there is to hear in Velouria. But I can still listen to it five times in a row and love it, and want to make an arrangement for cello orchestra of it. So to make a long text.... a few lines longer, I think someone saying that classical music is greater than pop/rock music (with this generality) is being way too subjective to receive a proper label. Maybe misinformed. But let's make something clear: Tchaikovsky is cool (come ON Tracie!). And everyone can call me a snob, I'm the one with the "Violoncello Bach Beethoven Brahms and I" T-shirt. :P Guilherme
Laura Wichers Registered User (9/26/00 1:26:36 pm) Reply	Shows what he knows (or doesn't know).
dennisw Registered User (9/26/00 4:02:17 pm) Reply	Re: Musical Snobbery If there is anyone on this thread who thinks that classical music is the only (or even most) sublime, complex, intricate, multi-level, and subtle musical art form, please listen to some John Coltrane. I suggest you start out with the album "Giant Steps". If you still aren't convinced, try using all your learned conservatory skills to transcribe one of his tenor solos and then try playing it on the cello. Go ahead, I dare you to try it.
Lissey Registered User (9/26/00 4:42:40 pm) Reply	Re: Musical Snobbery Reminds me of an argument I was having a couple of days ago - I was talking with a friend about John Rutter's 'Magnificat' which I totally fell in love with (everyone, go listen to it!)and he was telling me that he didn't like John Rutter much because however nice his music is, it's not really profound! I just couldn't get that - I don't care about harmonic complexity or stuff like that, I like music that sounds good and carries emotion - and who cares if it's not profound (and that's only in someone's opinion!). When I listen to something whether classical, jazz or rock, I want the music to sound good, to move me somehow, fullstop. And somehow I don't think that anything that sounds really nice can sound really nice without having a solid theoretical backing, both in classical and non-classical stuff.