String v. Non-String-Playing Conductors

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Ellen G Registered User (9/26/00 10:34:27 am) Reply	String v. Non-String-Playing Conductors Just looking for remarks about conductors and how their various instruments of choice affect the orchestra, the type of performance they turn out. In professional levels it might not matter as much, but I don't know that. The thought comes to mind as I noticed differences on a youth orchestra level in the ability of the conductor to convey to the strings, technically, what they had to do to achieve the desired effect. I am assuming a trumpet player would not have been able to explain how to get what he wants; just that he wants it. By the same token, a string person probably can't tell the horns what they should be doing... And someone with vocal background or piano, what effect, if any, would that have? Trying to understand this on as many levels as people can share. Through the rehearsal to the performance. Thank ewe. E
Sorefingers Registered User (9/27/00 12:22:09 pm) Reply	Re: String v. Non-String-Playing Conductors Hi Ellen, I have experience with a trumpet playing conductor directing a community orchestra. It was not an enjoyable experience - very frustrating. He generally picked woodwind/brass friendly pieces to play - lots of marches too. The string section was generally made to feel like idiots on a weekly basis - we were always the "weak link" in the orchestra. He would try to communicate to the strings what he wanted for a few rehearsals, but then would say forget it - it's no use, and give the cello part to the basson or french horn. We had about 10 violins, 4 violas, 4 celli and 3 bass. Most of the string players quit (me included) and I heard that the conductor was replaced. Our new conductor is a cellist/organist/ and choir director. I don't have enough space to sing his praises. The strings rehearse 2 hours before the entire orchestra joins us on Monday night, for a total of 4 hours, and then 3 hours on Thursday night are JUST FOR STRINGS - lots of extra work for all, but the musicians are willing to be there and do what needs to be done. Keep in mind - the musicians are all volunteer - mostly retired people (Florida - geriatrics, so this is especially amazing for these people to play so often and long, and well I might add.) On the other hand, my Maestro, is equally efficient communicating to the brass/woodwinds and percussion. Perhaps we just lucked out and have a "winner". We have just completed our series of summer concerts (x3), and the violin section has grown from 8 violins to 30 !!! I think that says how good we sound and how good a job our conductor with a string background is doing. Edited by: Sorefingers at: 9/27/00 12:22:09 pm
MaryK Registered User (9/27/00 12:45:33 pm) Reply	Re: String v. Non-String-Playing Conductors Hmm, interesting question, Ellen! Thinking back, I've played under the baton of only one string player. This was in my college orchestra back in the mid-70's. He was a jerk. We were kids, chafing more at what a jerk he was than what kind of conductor he was, unfortunately. I don't recall that this guy showed any especial interest in the string players, was better able to communicate what he wanted to the strings. Shrug. Long time ago. Sometimes I think we play in spite of the conductors... Anyhoo, my guess is you'd get better, more thoughtful, responses from pros. MaryK
Tracie Price Registered User (9/27/00 12:46:46 pm) Reply	Trumpet players, etc. I've worked with 3 trumpet/conductor people. The first took his conducting seriously and realized he didn't know everything there was to know, so he took more conducting lessons with orchestral conductors (he had a degree in conducting already) AND even took violin lessons so he could better understand the strings! He did make us play "band" music on occasion, but at least he was really making an effort to be a good conductor. He wasn't above asking questions to section leaders as to how to get the effect he wanted. Usually things like "what would be the best bowing to achieve this" or "is it possible to do _____". Another was an arrogant, "I know all there is to know" kind of guy. He insisted on doing ALL the bowings and would tolerate no discussion or suggestions from anyone about them. They were AWFUL bowings. Hmmm.. as I remember, Ellen ran into him last year in Chicago... Stay away from that guy. The third isn't really a conductor, but a masters student in conducting. He too is awful and clueless. I would think that if you were going to go into conducting that you should learn all you can about each of the instruments. He had no interest in learning anything at all, and his level of ignorance was astounding to all of us who were suffering under his "direction". (or lack thereof) His approach to bowings was "I don't care, just do whatever" yet he would nitpick at the oboes for their articulation. He really has no business in front of an orchestra. He wouldn't even look over the score before rehearsal. Ugh! Shudder! Anyway, I'd like to make a gross generalization about trumpety conductors, but I suppose that would be unfair. I had one decent one out of three, you can jump to your own conclusions. I think it has more to do with the person's work ethic, personality, and musical talent than with what instrument they play. You can get lazy or arrogant conductors who play any instrument. Every conductor I've had who has been a string player has been good, however.... hmmmmmm.... Maybe I'm just biased. Now choral conductors... that's a whole 'nother story... most of them I've worked with I've wanted to stab with my endpin. Is that bad? In general, the conducting style learned in the three different areas- orchestra, wind, choral- are vastly different. I think a good conductor knows this and can adjust. I think too often conductors get caught up in the new great move they've come up with, rather than realizing their main concern should be doing whatever they need to do to get the desired result. It's a change in philosophy. I personally realized it a few years ago- that I needed to think "what can I do to get them to play that phrase this way" and then do it. It's all about good communication skills (mostly non-verbal) and being open to trying different methods. ramble ramble. -Tracie
Tracie Price Registered User (9/27/00 12:48:41 pm) Reply	Re: String v. Non-String-Playing Conductors "Sometimes I think we play in spite of the conductors... " That's hitting the nail on the head MaryK!!!
MaryK Registered User (9/27/00 2:03:52 pm) Reply	Another nail head gets hit! "Now choral conductors... that's a whole 'nother story... most of them I've worked with I've wanted to stab with my endpin." Your turn to hit the nail on the head, Tracie!! Vocalists... shudder shudder MaryK
ruthann Registered User (9/27/00 3:16:23 pm) Reply	Re: String v. Non-String-Playing Conductors I remember a violinist conductor in college that I absolutely despised. He was an absolute jerk, picked music that was too hard for the group. Most of the quality string players dropped orchestra when he took over. I remember doing Tchaik #5(?) with four freshman cellists. The performance was like standing on stage and pulling your pants down. I've had some really fine string playing conductors. It's nice when they realize what is and is not possible from the strings. Our current jerk, and I say that not just because he's a conductor, is a flautist. He has no clue. He has one of the largest egos I've ever seen. He chooses pieces to play that he likes, regardless of the difficulty, never studies the score, and has no plan for what needs to be accomplished at each rehersal. When we do concertos, chosen by the soloist, he doesn't even bother to listen to a recording, study the score, etc. It's become a running joke to count how many times during a performance you can tell he's lost. We had an assistant conductor, also a flautist, a few years back - she was marvellous. She studied her score, came well prepared to each rehersal, defered to principles on technical points, asking for a particular effect. Pleasant, well mannered, incredibly well organized. I think being a string player helps, but being a decent human being is much more important. cello_suttonr@hotmail.com
MaryK Registered User (9/27/00 3:29:26 pm) Reply	Re: String v. Non-String-Playing Conductors "I remember a violinist conductor in college that I absolutely despised. He was an absolute jerk, picked music that was too hard for the group. Most of the quality string players dropped orchestra when he took over. I remember doing Tchaik #5(?) with four freshman cellists. The performance was like standing on stage and pulling your pants down." LOL, what an image, Ruthann!!! You didn't by any chance attend CWSC and play for Cliff C., did you?? "I think being a string player helps, but being a decent human being is much more important." Right on, right on! Yet another nail in this thread!! Cheers, MaryK Edited by: MaryK at: 9/27/00 3:29:26 pm
David Sanders Registered User (9/28/00 12:11:04 am) Reply	Re: Trumpet players, etc. >Another was an arrogant, "I know all there is to know" kind of guy. He insisted on doing ALL the bowings and would tolerate no discussion or suggestions from anyone about them. They were AWFUL bowings. Hmmm.. as I remember, Ellen ran into him last year in Chicago... Stay away from that guy. Was he conducting when Ellen ran into him in Chicago? It doesn't take a trumpet player to want to do all the bowings and not tolerate any discussion about them. Others can do that as well.
Tracie Price Registered User (9/28/00 12:35:29 am) Reply	Re: Trumpet players, etc. No, he wasn't conducting. If HE ever conducts you guys, I'll have to shoot myself. He was out in the audience at a rehearsal or something, I'm not sure.
David Sanders Registered User (9/28/00 1:35:03 am) Reply	Re: Trumpet players, etc. I was being facetious.
zambocello Registered User (9/28/00 1:48:27 am) Reply	Go figure Of "major symphony conductors" that I've played with, the one with the worst rhythm was a percussionist. Our LA Phil Mus Dir, Essa-Pekka Salonen, is a french hornist. I wouldn't have guessed it by his conducting/rehearsing, though. Speaking of string player-conductors, has anyone else played with Peter Oundjian? (sp?) He is the recently resigned 1st fiddle of the Tokyo Quartet who quit because of carpel tunnel or some other kind of tendonitis-like problem. He is starting a conducting career and I think will be great. He guested a couple of times with the Houston Symphony and was especially good for the strings. He didn't have a lot to offer the winds, except that he does hear intonation(!) His first concert was so good that he worked his way on to the Mus Dir search list, but was passed over especially because of his lack of experience and repertoire in the orchestral area.
Tracie Price Registered User (9/28/00 2:20:20 am) Reply	hahaha (silly me!)