Adult beginners... I need your help!

Internet Cello Society Forums > Cellists by Night (Semi-Pro or Amateur) > Adult beginners... I need your help!
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Laura Wichers Registered User (10/4/00 4:19:32 pm) Reply	Adult beginners... I need your help! Yeah, okay, I know I'm not a CBN. But I'm down on my knees begging for your help, so my post here is forgivable, right? Sometime within the next few months, I'll be taking on a few adult cello students, most of whom have never so much as touched a cello. I already have a thread on the main ICS board about teaching strategies, but then I thought, hey! why don't I just go straight to the horse's mouth and head over to the CBN board. What I would like to know is how your teachers started you out... things they did that really helped you, things you wish they had presented/taught differently, the apx order in which they introduced new techniques, etc. Any suggestions you have would be greatly appreciated, by me and my students-to-be. And of course, part of my lesson requirement will be ICS attendance records. Thanks in advance! -Laura
phesketh Registered User (10/4/00 5:26:41 pm) Reply	Re: Adult beginners... I need your help! Ok ... I will pipe in ... note that I read the base clef and treble clef instruments for years when I started and one of my prior instruments is a violin. Alot of focus was spent on the differences in the bow work between the two instruments. In the first two+ lessons we covered: 1. sit and determining the proper length for the endpin. 2. hold the cello 3. hold the bow 4. covered using rosin and when to rosin 5. playing whole notes (outside strings first then inside) and getting good sound 6. up bow cresendo's (forgive spelling) 7. down bow decrecendo's 8 . faster rythms all on the same string 9. during the bowing steps the focus was on getting the right hand position right and using your body weight to apply pressure and keeping the bow in the "groove" on the right angle even as the bowings got faster. 10. string crossings (still open notes) 11. 2 note slurs 11.5 up bow decrecendos and down bow crecendos. 12 then adding the fingers 1,2-3, 4th 13 once 4th is in place C major scale 2 octaves to practice string crossings. 14. by 3rd lesson we were doing G major scale in 2 octaves. (teacher believed teaching it early and using it regularly would help me to not develop the thumb grip of death- worked for a while.). Teachers early words of wisdom - think of an elastic band between your thumb and your second finger... your thumb should stay in the position that would have the least tension in the band (idea breaks down in upper positions though). - let your fingers/arm sink into the fingerboard - starting with two handed bowing to get you in the "groove" Oh yeah ... and if the people have never learned an instrument before remember to set their expectation levels. Paula
Dorie Straus Registered User (10/4/00 5:31:26 pm) Reply	Re: Adult beginners... I need your help! Read your other post and emailed you directly with someone to contact. My first teacher was so nice - she became a good friend, but she had never taught an adult before. I could read music, which was good for her, but her choice of music and method books were uninteresting to me. If I can say any general comment on adult beginners, here it is: Adults are much harder on themselves than kids; wouldn't even be doing this if there wasn't some intrinsic drive to take on this kind of challenge. Adults want to make music soon and don't have the patience to hear awful noises coming out of their own instruments - for too long anyway.
DWThomas Registered User (10/4/00 6:05:37 pm) Reply	Re: Adult beginners... I need your help! To my amazement, it was summer 1998 and I am having a little trouble remembering (senior moments)! My background was some keyboard lessons, circa 1981 - 85 (harpsichord). So I had seen bass clef before. We did some work with holding the instrument, immediately deciding the endpin on the plywood El-Schlocko was too short. I wrought an extension out of a piece of 1/8 inch pipe for the following week and eventually got a longer pin (homemade from titanium rod, no less). As I recall, musically we started with stuff from a book that my teacher loaned me -- it might have been one of the Applebaum books. We worked on the first few notes on an individual string as I recall (D or G -- can't remember). Pretty simple stuff of single note values, as I vaguely recall. We then slowly worked our way into additional strings, and in parallel got involved with more note values. Obviously a lot of the first two or three lessons was spent on hand and arm positions, bow strokes, etc. Somewhere during the first year's work we got into extensions forward and back, and some second and third position. The music got up to the Charles Krane "Bach in the First Position". Somewhere around the end of the first year we started working with a booklet from Schott "Alte Meisterweisen fur junge Cellisten" (ach ja!). There is probably a little discontinuity in the program, as I changed teachers at the beginning of fall '99. With my current teacher, we've been occasionally tackling some exercises from Krane's "New School of Cello Studies" and from Stephen De'ak, "modern Method for the Violoncello." Since your's truly hangs out on these crazy boards, and also prowls the rec.music.bowed-strings newsgroup, I'm not above showing up with a piece of music, or suggesting something now and then. This summer we worked with the first movement of the Breval C major sonata, and a couple of traditional Scottish ditties from the Abby Newton "Crossing to Scotland" CD. The former is not ready for public performance, but went better than I expected. My teacher seemed pleased with the results, partly because getting to that point apparently opens up more repertoire possibilities. The Scottish stuff was much more challenging than I expected, having listened to it. Some fourth position and odd rhythms and such. It actually provided quite a bit of learning potential. I still won't claim to be all that great in general tone quality, and intonation is still a leetle messy when there's a lot of string and position changing going on. That's about where I am now, waiting for lessons to start again -- my teacher is over in Belgium playing some gigs with my wife's former viola teacher (who lives there). As I posted on here earlier, we had our first session at playing quartets Monday night. To my amazement, it was all first position and very simple rhythmically, so I could concentrate on the ensemble stuff (about which I know zilch!) Well, There's a thunderstorm brewing so mayhaps I better kick this off now. Maybe if you asked me some specific questions it would jiggle some memories to life! Dave
DWThomas Registered User (10/4/00 6:10:13 pm) Reply	Re: Adult beginners... I need your help! Well put! I think playing 3 measure segments of nursery rhyme tunes loses its gloss pretty quickly too! Both of the teachers I've had were pretty clever at coming up with interesting stuff to work on after those first few weeks (in the beginning, the repertoire for three whole notes is limited). Dave
me4cello Registered User (10/5/00 7:56:55 am) Reply	Re: Adult beginners... I need your help! I think it is important to establish good technique right from the beginning, correcting bow hold, postion of instrument, intonation. I had a very thorough teacher who corrected me all the time, but told me why he was doing it and how it would affect my tone etc. I know of another adult beginner who has been playing about the same time as me but with a diferent teacher who has the most strange bow hold imaginable, she tells me she has problem with pain in her right hand/wrist. Her teacher has never corrected her, I'm reluctant to criticise her teacher to her, but I think she may end up with tendonitis or something. Adults are harder on themselves, expect to be able to do something straight away. Tell them it's the journey that is important - Bet they practise more than your average 10 year old though!!!
JanJan Registered User (10/5/00 9:51:10 am) Reply	Re: Adult beginners... I need your help! Hi Laura - Welcome to CBN, glad to have you stop by! Well, I actually "began" on the cello twice. The first time (in my 30's) my first teacher was about 6 1/2 months pregnant when I started. She went over the usual stuff: how to sit, how to hold everything, and she definitley started me in 1st position. I don't recall what materials (if any) she used. My studies with Stefanie lasted about a month. Then there were a series of other teachers (it's all become sort of a blur now) and along the way I used different materials: Deak, Piatti, Beautiful Music, etc. But I ended up quitting cello after about a year or so for really stupid reasons. Then in my mid-40's I came back to cello (after "wasting" 2 years on the viola). Since I could already read music and had some string experience, I'm sure Brian took a different approach with me. He used Suzuki books, but did not teach Suzuki method. If I remember correctly, I was already playing 1st through 4th positions when I started with him. I seem to recall him working with me from the start on issues of tone production and bow control. I agree with all the other observations about adult students. They're highly motivated, but overly self-critical. They thrive on encouragement and accomplishment. What do I wish my teachers had done differently? Perhaps more information about the care and feeding of a cello. And don't assume I know something, just because I've studied piano, violin, or whatever---I guess this pertains mostly to questions of theory, but technique if there's previous string study. And maybe more exposure to great cellists past/present - I've done a lot of comparisons on my own, and have brought questions/observations to my lessons that have always proven beneficial and worth the time spent. And lastly, maybe have a "class trip" to a concert---great source of inspiration and observations. Hope this helps somewhat. Let us know how it goes for you and your students! Oh, I forgot one other thing. One of my teachers the first time 'round used to have semi-regular get togethers where all her students would play for/with one another. I don't think she actually used the word "recital", since she did not want this to be a stress-inducing event. I think it's great to get people accustomed to playing for others as early as possible. After all, that's the whole point of music isnt' it---to share it? Janet http://www.nese.net Edited by: JanJan at: 10/5/00 9:51:10 am
Ellen G Registered User (10/5/00 9:40:19 am) Reply	Re: Adult beginners... I need your help! I've been uncertain what to say, and how to say it. I started cello lessons as a child, so I'm not really an adult beginner. On the other hand, there was so much missing in my early training, which was in public school and not taught by cellists, that in many respects I feel like I have been at Square One a lot. Secondly, some of the best instruction I've received has been recently and while I wish I had had it earlier, I'm not sure if I would have been as receptive to it as I am now. Looking backwards at what I THINK might have been effective isn't quite fair, since the beginning student has this barrage of do's and don't's thrown at him. It is clearly impossible to hope for proper form and grip and technique, so you have to pick and choose "the biggest fish to fry" and not try to change too many things at once, but decide which is most critical. I think too much attention is paid to shifting and not enough to bowing. I say this because I've been recently battling with those #$@% wedding books. There is very little left hand shifting at issue, for those of you who have seen the music, and aside from being able to vibrate effectively it is pretty much a matter of bowing technique, control. Stopping and starting, constant pressure, smooth changes, marcado, staccato, spiccato, the works. And a lot of this goes back to the initial setup of the bow hold, the arm, the weight issues. An excellent demonstration was given to me of "the magic triangle" and the exact same issue was addressed on the ICS board shortly thereafter. Until that time I had never seen or heard of this, and I'd have to say it was THE single most valuable (I think) instruction I have received. If you have watched cellists on video, you may have noticed that it appears the bow is going to fall out of their hands, as if they are barely holding onto it. But if you watch the hand and the arm, rather than figuring out how to hold and manipulate the bow, it almost becomes a study in the path the bow needs to take and then adjusting your hand and arm to make this happen. Absolutely fascinating, and incredibly difficult to learn now after having done it incorrectly and not understanding the principles for more years than I care to think about. The point of this is, it doesn't matter what your left hand is capable of if your bow arm just can't deliver. Another thing that is a major stumbling block for adults is thinking that the printed numbers above the fingers are written by God and can never be changed. Most of us don't see multiple editions of the same piece, and when you do it is a real eye opener. It is hard to overcome the notion that you can't cross out what the book is telling you to do, as if you invalidate the experience. It is important to know there are multiple ways to finger a passage, and that while a particular fingerings may force you to shift because it's sort of an exercise, musically another shift would be better. So people feel comfortable in ALL positions, not just the leap from 1st to 4th. Again, I'm speaking retrospectively which carries an unfair advantage, but I can tell you what a lot of the long-range effects are of poor fundamentals, not just in my case but in repeated posts on the Board. Good luck, Laura. You'll be great.
Bobbie Registered User (10/5/00 11:11:32 am) Reply	Re: Adult beginners... Like Ellen, I started in grade school but with a violin teacher. When I restarted, at 35, I wasn't quite a beginner but I might have been better off if I was. Like many adult beginners, though, I knew how to read music (though not how to count or read key signatures.) The hardest thing for me was getting over the fear that my teacher would discover my terrible secret, which was that I was never going to be able to learn to play the cello. That made me very tense and very sensitive. I was probably worse than most adults, at least, worse than most of the ones who actually take up an instrument and stick with it. Now I am actually teaching an adult beginner (who is miles ahead of where I was after a year.) With her, the main problem is that she has a limited amount of practice time--very limited, as she is a new teacher and has a husband and three kids. Sometimes she doesn't touch the cello between lessons, which is obviously not ideal, but I have to be sensitive to the fact that she wants to play the cello and is willing to stick with it even though she has a hard time finding the time. I've used a lot of duets in teaching as it helps me to hear how she is doing if I am also playing, and also because it makes it much more enjoyable for her. This works mainly because she has a good ear and can already count very well. We started with Werner because he starts with a lot of good open string stuff including duets where the beginner plays open strings and the teacher plays accompaniment. I am struck by the fact that, although she is doing incredibly well compared to how I did my first year or two, she still feels like she "can't do anything". This comes from comparing herself not to other beginners but to pros. I think it would help a lot if you teach multiple adult beginners to meet in a group once in awhile and have them play ensembles and play for each other.
Ellen G Registered User (10/5/00 12:22:10 pm) Reply	social/psychological pitfalls Picking up where Bobbi left off... There's a tendency for people to expect adults to be good at something because they ARE adults. It is implied that we have been at this a long time. Consequently, if a grown-up in a conversation says they play the cello, everyone in the room thinks they can sit down and play like a pro. It is this sort of situation that makes us cringe and say, "No, actually I'm an amateur" and then try to explain exactly HOW amateur we are. Anyway, I was invited to one of these "Monday Afternoon Music Club" meetings. There were all these women (yes, women only - yikes!) who were performing at the meeting. I had heard names of some of them as violin teachers for years, and naturally I was expecting these stellar performances. When I heard the intonation, the lack of phasing, the lack of a lot of things, I'm not sure if I was relieved, shocked, disappointed. I had just EXPECTED this high level of playing, which made me realize just how hard it is to play well, and how we need to get away from professional recordings on occasion and spend more time in each other's homes listening to other adults. The second we get a reality check on how the rest of the adult students sound, we can sure relax a lot. I cannot, however, relax around anyone who plays cello better than I do. The violinist in one of the quartets I play with has an older brother who I've not heard play, but I've heard him spoken about. So naturally I just "KNOW" he could blow me away, and he is watching my hands and noticing my overshifting, etc. I hate it when he's in the room. Somehow this had something to do with Bobbi's post, but not much to do with Laura's. Sorry.
Nico67 Registered User (10/5/00 12:28:29 pm) Reply	Re: Adult beginners... I need your help! Most of the things that I wanted to say have already been said so I will just second what Ellen just said. Pay a lot of attention to the right hand and to bowing technique since from the beginning. Tell the student that although it may be boring now it will help her/him produce better sound later. Since most adult students are drawn to the cello because of its beatiful sound that should be enough motivation. I know because I think I have been paying too attention to left hand stuff and I still cannot produce a nice sound. It all came together yesterday at the lesson when the teacher said basically "that's it. we are not going to move forward until you fix your bowing and manage to keep the bow under control". I really felt terrible at the lesson, but it gave me the motivation this morning to stop everything I was doing and just concentrate on the first 8 bars of the etude and look at the bow and make sure that I KNOW what to do to keep it under control. I think I got it. Now I just need to practice it over and over until it becomes "automatic". Which brings me to the next point. Although adult beginners are hard on themselves and as Janet says they "thrive on encouragement" I would not be afraid to criticize them as hard as necessary. Sometimes if my teacher doesn't get frustrated I don't understand the importance of certain things. As for my training. My first (bad) teacher started me on Suzuki and Applebaum (although we didn't follow the Suzuki method). My second (excellent) teacher continued me on Suzuki and as soon as I could added Dotzauer and Friss. ---Rosario
Ellen G Registered User (10/5/00 12:58:51 pm) Reply	Rosario, et al Rosario, did you ever check out the music that the orchestra was playing? I was curious if you felt it worked out for the best. Also, I was thinking about you when I unearthed a post of Pat's I'd printed out. I made reference to it on the other board. If I may quote in part, since it already WAS a post and is probably archived somewhere... And this is applicable to a lot of us, so I certainly didn't mean to single you out. It is just your post that brought it to the fore a while back. An excerpt from Pat's original post: "On the one hand we have playing pieces. On the other hand we have working on technique. Most students love to play pieces, and most students hate to work on technique. However, I want you to think of technique as a bank account. Let's say that every day you practice scales, arpeggios, etudes, bowing studies, etc. How high is your technique bank account? .... So you want to play this piece that has about 15 different techniques in it. No problem! Just go over to the technique bank account, make the needed withdrawals, and play the piece! "What if you wanted to play a really neat piece, but you are someone who does not have a technique bank account? You will try and try and try to get things, and you will think you just have to keep trying the piece over and over and over, but the REAL problem is that when you need to go over and make a withdrawal from your technique bank account, it is empty. "So the idea is to always work on boring technique because it gives you the ammunition to play exciting repertoire. Trying to learn a piece without the proper technique bank account is like trying to go up the down escalator. You CAN do it, but it is NOT the best way." Again, kudos to Pat. I really benefitted from this, and I think a lot of students need to think this way.
Nico67 Registered User (10/5/00 1:09:10 pm) Reply	Re: Rosario, et al Ellen I remember that post about the "bank account technique" and I admit of using it as motivation when I get bored of playing etudes. Honestly though I actually like playing etudes. I know, I am weird As for the orchestra music, no I never checked. Maybe I will ask my friend who plays in the orchestra to show it to me. But I need to start playing with other people! I can't count! last week my teacher and I were playing duets and I was screwing up so bad. Thus Laura, add that to the list. Play duets right away, so students get used to counting. ---Rosario
Joe S Registered User (10/5/00 11:36:13 pm) Reply	Re: Adult beginners... I need your help! Laura, We are not all that bad. We may not have the time to practice as much as we should, but our attention span is longer, we tend to understand what you want sooner and our parents are not pushing us in to this. But as we are choosing to be there and pay you for time and knowlege, we are more verbal about our needs and quicker to say that we don't understand. We each come with different musical backround, but all of us will need to understand that the cello is the one of the hardest instruments to learn and helped to set smaller obtainable goals so that we don't get discourage because we can't play as well as we had hoped in just a short time. We need to know what we are doing wrong, how we going to improve it, and that we are making progress even though it is painfully slow at times. And like the younger students we need lots of praise, we are doing this to feel good about ourselves. You will do just fine, Joe S.
Betsy C Registered User (10/6/00 9:45:08 am) Reply	Re: Adult beginners... I need your help! Hi Laura, like Joe S., Ellen and the others I am sure you will do just fine as a teacher! I have been thinking about your question and trying to come up with potentially helpful answers. I also believe that learning the fundamentals is key. My teacher (thankfully a really good one!) really does stress the importance of drilling over and over on the basics such as bowing, open string practice and left hand technique. I think that there are a lot of similarities between learning cello as a youngster and an adult, but a lot of differences as well. IMHO, the biggest difference is that the majority of young learners are not as afraid or nervous as we are to screw up and sound really horrible on the way to improvement! They just bounce back, while we at times agonize over our mistakes. We also have numerous obligations that severely cut into our practice time. I work, am now taking a class, have my home and family, and have recently become active in church, too. It is a real balancing act at times and it occasionally requires short-changing one for the other which I do not like to do. On the plus side, we adults tend to be motivated, we do it for pure love of the cello, we do not have to be forced to practice and it can be fun teaching adults! Walter and I work, but we have a real blast at times. Which brings me to my next discourse... It is SO important to have a good mutual respect between teacher and student. I am grateful for each and every correction, suggestion and critique I receive in my lessons because I do not want a 'yes man/woman' for a teacher. If I knew what I was doing, I would not need a teacher! However, I have always been treated with respect and I hope my teacher feels that I have reciprocated. Any time I have needed to be told that I have really fouled up, let's do it again the RIGHT way, I have not been insulted because Walter does it in a way that is kind but firm. There is a real art to that. I'd also cover some cello basics, such as the importance of keeping the cello humidified e.g. not leaving it next to your woodstove all winter, to not change all the strings at once, to not use so much rosin as to choke you in a cloud of dust, to clean the strings post practice and wipe the cello with a nice cloth afterwards, etc. The cello is my first stringed instrument and I knew nothing. I'd encourage your students to develop a friendship with a buddy that they can get together with an play just to have fun. It adds a wonderful dimension to everything else. I started with a book that I am still using, "The art of cello playing", by Louis Potter, Jr. It is an excellent, systematic book that methodically covers the basics and enables the student to move ahead and it challenges the student bit by bit. I'd also recommend some fun books with easy duets so that the student can actually play something and have some fun! Duets help me a lot with my intonation and time. Rosario, I am with ya buddy! My counting is not the tops, either! The Samuel Applebaum books are great, "Beautiful Music For Two String Instruments". The duets are enjoyable. I started with thumb position early in the game- it's just a thought but I do not feel intimidated by it now. I actually like it and think it is fun! (Sometimes it sounds better than the other things I do.) To close, remember that each person you teach will be different. Some adults' goal will be to play easy duets with their child who is learning violin, some may want to play with a community orchestra, some may never want to do any more than play in the comfort of their living room, while some may really be motivated and have the ability to go much further. Be honest, kind, encouraging, respectful but above all enjoy the process. It will be a wonderful experience for all of you! I'll bet you will find some really frustrating and really rewarding moments at the same time. Kind of like your adult students! I am positive you will do well. Enjoy and keep us posted.