| Author |
Subject |
Liz
Schneider
Registered User
(9/11/00 9:45:27 pm)
Reply |
Just
coach my daughter, don't teach her.
OK, the parent wouldn't put in in
those terms, but that's what happened - I counted 7 "important"
events in one year which required "help" beyond the curriculum of
skills and repertoire I assigned. Youth orchestra, Allstate,
Federation, "X" State Symphony Fellowship, etc. and this girl was
talented but so unprepared in good cello basics I wanted to nurture.
I wonder now if the mother had been reading the back of music
teachers magazines for events to enter her daughter in.
What
should I do if I sense this coming again? I have a stage dad and his
daughter coming for an interview soon. To make it worse, he admits
he pushes his kids because they're a minority race, and he feels
they must outperform the whites. How does one handle this? Any
optimism? Comments please . . .
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Bob
Registered User
(9/11/00 9:56:09 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Just coach my daughter, don't teach her.
If you don't teach the daughter,
how's she supposed to learn?
But the stage dad sounds like
the opposite problem. And maybe not a problem at all. I mean, Venus
Williams' dad pushed HER . . .
In any case, if things are
making you nuts with a student, or his/her parents, you sweetly
offer to recommend other teachers who they might work better
with.
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Liz
Schneider
Registered User
(9/11/00 10:36:28 pm)
Reply |
Thanks
Bob
You're right, except maybe about the
dad. There may be healthy situations in which a parent can be
"pushy-" Tiger Woods' dad also comes to mind and he seems (from my
limited knowledge) to be warmer than the Williams' dad. But I was
disturbed by this father sharing his mindset about race. Trying to
set his kids up to defeat societal injustices by means of their high
school accomplishments? The playing field's not quite as slanted as
the late 50's when he was in high school. Therein lies a topic I'm
sure but- trying to stay on the music subject- Can we tell this dad
that music and sports are colorblind? Tell but not convince. My
concerns:
1) She won't enjoy music for itself - ever - it's so
easy to mix music up with self worth even without stage parents . .
.
2) I'm just a stepping stone to the next event and next
teacher with longer resume, because the older sister changed
teachers so often that seems their pattern.
3) Just as success
attributed to talent, anything less than their greatest expectations
attributed to racism.
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mcello
Registered User
(9/12/00 7:50:39 am)
Reply |
Just
Coach.....
As a musician who is a parent, I
have often been critisized for not pushing my children harder in
music. Even though I'm a cellist, my daughter is much more
interested in voice and thats been her private lessons, etc. for the
past 3 years. I really have a hard time with parents who push too
hard. There is a 10 year old cello student who has recently moved to
our community and the parents are pushing to get him into youth
orchestra, which is for 8th graders - high school and even though
the kid may be good (I still have not heard him play) I'm all for
letting kids be kids and not over pushing them when they are too
young. As for not ever getting to work on technique, etc. I think
you may just have to lay down the rules to Mom and tell her that if
she will slow down, her daughter will improve greatly and truly be
ready for the competitions etc., but that if she doesn't get the
basics....she will always be frustrated.
A friend of mine's
son began lessons, 2 weeks ago, and she commented to me on the phone
that she was surprised at how basic the practice was right now. I
patiently had to explain that until they can actually move the bow
comfortably and work on a little left hand technique that its very
difficult to do anything else. I wish I had a way to have kids
playing concertos the first week, but reality is that this does not
happen!
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Lucy
Clifford
Registered User
(10/12/00 11:05:25 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Just coach my daughter, don't teach her.
This is a less-recent thread, but I
will drag it up to make my first post on this board, which has a
lofty title!
I have this problem with my pupils. I mainly
teach using the Suzuki Method. Consequently (I don't want to sound
conceited, so please understand) my students, who often start at 4
years of age, are very advanced and able to read well when they are
10 or 11. Consequently they (or rather their parents) want them to
join youth orchestras or go in chamber music programmes for which
they seem *musically* ready, but not developementally ready.
Even so, if they can play to the required level, learning
lots of chamber/orchestral music takes a lot of their time and
detracts from the music they are studying with me, whether Suzuki
Repertoire or "supplementary"..
This slows their progress, and
then the parent becomes annoyed with me!
I sound somewhat
harsh on these poor parents. They are very dedicated and help their
children so much, but sometimes they don't realise these things. It
is one of the teacher's more unpleasant duties.
The other
factor is older students. They often come to me at 14, having been
with another teacher. Sometimes their technique needs a lot of
correction, which is hard work for them. Often they also want to
join orchestras because they believe that they are old enough or
advanced enough. These arre the harder people to deal with. On one
hand I don't want to shatter their confidence by saying that they
are not ready, but on the other, I don't want them to have a
terrible struggle once in the ensemble.
At the moment I
trying to pave the way from the start. I tell these pupils that
playing in an orchestra is hard work (I have to hope that they
haven't already played in an orchestra). I tell them that one needs
a very stable technique, and one which is versatile and able to cope
with the demands made upon it. I tell them that going into an
orchestra beforre one is ready can cause injury, from poor
technique.......
I try not to lecture, but explain. Usually
they accept it happily, even the ones with ambitious
parents!
I read recently an article by Craig Timmermann in a
Suzuki publication, in which he wrote of the importance of
establising unencumbered communication between teach-student-parents
so that when things need to be brought into the open it can be done
without causing offence to anybody.
I am trying that in my
teaching, and it requires a lot of groundwork to build up this
three-way respect. I think it is worth it.
As to the
'minority-race' problem, I think that the father has obviously had
experience of this, and is acting upon his own fears. I hope
everything goes well. Try to be 'firm but kind'!!
Lucy
|
OyOy
Registered User
(10/13/00 11:16:14 am)
Reply |
with
respect . . .
Your thoughtfulness & dedication
are commendable. However, I must say, your dedication seems
misplaced to me. Your premise seems to be Lucy Knows Best ("if they
can play to the required level, learning lots of chamber/orchestral
music takes a lot of their time and detracts from the music they are
studying with me, whether Suzuki Repertoire or 'supplementary'..
This slows their progress . . .").
There are many levels at
which I disagree. Obviously, as a teacher, you want your kids coming
in with their assigned lesson material well prepared. But in what
sphere, outside of your studio, is Suzuki repertoire more important
than "real world" music? It is ensemble music that 99% of musicians
will be dealing with throughout their lives, not the stuff in Suzuki
books, nor even the Mendelssohn Concerto.
You are quite
right that ensemble music is very demanding; so why shouldn't YOU
emphasize it and the skills it requires? You say that your kids can
read well at 10 or 11; if you're one of those rare Suzuki teachers
whose kids can read, and there's an ensemble specifically for 10
& 11-year-olds, why do you stand in the way? It is hard not to
ascribe a tinge of selfishness to your attitude. Ensemble training
covers all the gaps & holes in the Suzuki method.
The
fact that someone is a standout in their progress through the books
means absolutely nothing when they have to sit down in the middle of
a section, read their part correctly, watch the conductor, listen to
the other sections, adjust bowings on the fly, and produce extremes
in dynamics, all while maintaining an accurate and sensitive rhythm.
When a new student comes to you, you have their musical
future in your hands. By what divine authority do the student's
needs in the ensemble arena take second place to those in the solo
arena? You say, "[o]ften they also want to join orchestras because
they believe that they are old enough or advanced enough." Excuse
me? Do you truly believe that? You don't think that maybe they want
to join orchestras simply because THEY WANT TO JOIN? Or because
ensemble playing is the most enjoyable activity possible with a
cello?
If trained professional educators form an orchestra
geared towards inculcating ensemble skills in 10 & 11 year olds,
who are you to tell your kids who can read so well that they're "not
developmentally ready"? If your well-trained kids aren't ready for a
student orchestra, who is? Maybe we just should abolish all
pre-professional orchestras.
You do seem like a nice person,
but your post exposes an attitude I've seen in Suzuki teachers
around the world, one that results in stunted musical growth in too
many students. There's more to musical life than Suzuki books, and
the sooner a kid starts, and the more helpful assistance you give
along the way, the better they'll turn out in the end. So her solo
isn't quite ready for the Christmas concert and has to be done at
the Valentine's Day concert instead. BFD. In the meantime you've
helped build a MUSICIAN.
Edited by: OyOy
at: 10/13/00 11:16:14 am
|
Tracie
Price 
Registered
User
(10/13/00 7:47:53 pm)
Reply |
both
sides of the fence
I must say that I agree with many of
Oy Oy's points here.
As someone who has been on both sides,
that of an orchestra teacher and youth symphony conductor, and also
as a private studio cello teacher, I can see the point that often
music in ensembles can give students some bad habits, either because
it involves a technique not yet developed, or the parts are too easy
and students get lazy. (to name a few)
I've had private
students who come to me only for coaching, as per the original post,
and this also annoys me.
I've had private students who bring
their orchestra music in and want help with it, or show me something
that their orchestra director has told them to do which is very poor
technically or musically.
I've wished from time to time that
I could have the student just focus on something I want them to work
on, because I know they could make great
progress.
However
I believe the most valuable
thing a music teacher can do is prepare the student for the real
world, and instill in them a love and understanding of all music.
More often than not, this includes playing in all manner of
orchestras and hopefully some smaller chamber ensembles as well as
doing their solo work. I have known MANY wonderful violinists who
sound amazing, but still have trouble reading and playing in a
section because they were deprived of orchestral experience. (Suzuki
or not) Ensembles provide the opportunity to learn many ESSENTIAL
skills, no matter what age or ability the student. When I find
teachers who do not let their students join orchestras, I tend to
think those teachers are either selfish, or insecure. Students have
not actually learned ANYTHING until they can take that concept and
apply it themselves in another situation, such as an
orchestra.
If a student can play their solos wonderfully.
Great. But can they play wonderfully as a quartet member? A section
member? or leader? Can they work well with a pianist? Are they
familiar with literature beyond the limited solo repertoire? Music
is a vast topic, and the more a student learns about all facets, the
more interested in it he/she will become, and the greater the chance
that he/she will remain with the instrument.
To restrict a
student to one kind of education or another, whether that be only in
orchestra, or only in lessons, is most often not in the best
interest of the student. If nothing else, ensembles give these
talented kids a chance to interact with others who are like them,
and THIS is truly an important thing for young musicians. Chances
are, that their average friends at school will not understand
devotion to music, but other young musicians will. Kids need that
support structure.
As far as the coaching situation
goes... it's annoying. But I personally just give them what I can,
and tell them (and parents) they'd make much more progress with
regular lessons. If my schedule fills up, then they'll just have to
understand that it's full time, or not at all.
Best wishes
to all
Tracie
|
Lucy
Clifford
Registered User
(10/15/00 9:22:05 pm)
Reply |
I
should have explained better......
Yes, on re-reading my post I sound
very sanctimonious, nauseatingly so, in fact. Accept my apologies. I
don't want to continue to be nauseating, but bear with me. Rather
than speak of all my students across the board, I meant mainly those
who have pusy parents, as in the original post, who want to their
children to play for all the wrong reasons.
I should of said
that I do have students, young students, who take part in chamber
music and orchestra. I have an 11 year old student in an excellent
quartet with three other children ranging in age from 11 - 13 years
of age. They are currently working on the Dvorak "American" Quartet
and playing very well.
I also organise cello ensembles in my
studio. Some of the ensembles are very dedicated and rehearse 'for
fun'. I try to have ensembles for all ages and levels, from Book 1 -
Haydn C Major concerto level.
I consider reading very
important. I generally start my students on 'theory' in a group when
they first come to me, when young. I also like them to do theory
exams. Some do theory with me to a high level, others do it with
outside teachers.
You must also remember that Suzuki method
utilises group lessons. Most of the students in my area, playing
violin, piano, flute, cello and viola are excellent group players.
After all, playing together is about listening. I find when I
sometimes tutor cello sections in youth orchestra settings that
although they can play well they don't listen well.
When I
was doing my Suzuki training, in the USA, Europe and Australia, my
one bone of contention was those things of which you speak, OyOy. I
know exactly what you mean, and it is the problem which is still
causing the Suzuki-Stigma. It seems for every Suzuki teacher who is
dedicated, knowledgable, far-sighted and open minded, as well as
being a professional level player, there are about 5 teachers who
are limited, biased, grudging and poor players, who give some of us
a bad name.
It is something of a vicious circle that good
musicians, in all senses of the word, see a poor teacher, who is a
bit of a crackpot, discover that they are a Suzuki teacher and
equate the two! This stops good musicians becoming Suzuki teachers,
and keeps this thing happening.
It is very unfortunate that
this has happened.
When I write of being developementally
ready, I mean this:
Sometimes, when young children join an
orchestra they can not cope with, as you say, bowing, marking parts,
turning pages, keeping up.....but if they wait until they are a year
older, they can manage all this with more ease. Otherwise, in to
many cases orchestra becomes like a punishment, rather than a joy. I
do know that there is a learning curve - you can't expect to know
everything straight away - but I would prefer that they had to learn
these things when they could master them with less problems. Then
they enjoy themselves so much more.
Yes, often they want
to join because they want to join!!! These children, though, are
usually those who love to play their cellos, I mean *REALLY* love to
play, not the ones who want to join because "everybody else is" or
because mum wants them too, or because they don't want to go to a
'baby' group class.
Often these children who love to play
will overcome difficulties much quicker, because they are not afraid
of hard work, whereas the others find that it's hard slog, and not
what they imagined. They want to drop out. I find that very sad. In
fact my main troubles in teaching are concerned with finding a
balance between encouraging and pulling gently on the reins. One of
the greatest lessons I have learnt is that I am not Ms All-knowing
Infallible Teacher.
I agree with much of what OyOy and
Tracie say. They both have a lot of experience. I agree with what
OyOy says about preparing a solo. I understand what you mean about
'progress'. Again, I phrased badly. What I mean by progress is
progress in technique. Do you not agree that without a solid
technical base, a child will never be able to enjoy playing to the
full, a part of the original post in this thread. And I do not want
my pupils to be stunted.
I want them to be able to enjoy and love
music and the cello, and enjoy it always. I also agree that there is
much more music outside the solo repertoire, but for myself, I would
prefer if they had a solid technical knowledge and ability, so when
they start playing chamber music they have the skills to accomplish
it in the proper way.
To conclude (before I run up a huge
bill for internet use)
I need to say that in my original post I
did not want to show 'ultimatims' or look like a power-crazed demon
Suzuki tunnel-visioned-teacher. I don't think that I covered all
possibilities, just expressed a few feelings. We cannot cover every
eventuality, and every student is different - what is right for one
is definitely wrong for another, and it is impossible to explore all
situations here.
I do not wish to be branded as a harridan
(or however it is spelt!). I will not be nauseating
again.
Oh, now I sound defensive, which is, if anything
worse, so forgive me...please????
LuCy
ClIfFoRd
Edited by: Lucy
Clifford at: 10/15/00 9:22:05 pm
|
OyOy
Registered User
(10/17/00 8:56:56 am)
Reply |
with
more respect . . .
Lucy, your thoughtful response was
very impressive. I made some assumptions from your earlier post that
you've shown were inaccurate. Your students are lucky to have such a
fine person teaching them. Best wishes.
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