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yo yo jr Registered User (10/8/00 1:08:30 pm) Reply	Bad back! Alright, I know cellists have the worst backs of any instrumentalists, so maybe someone could tell me some of their tricks. I'm still young but I get sharp pains in my lower back, and right under my shoulder blades. I recently purchased a slated cushion but it doesn't seem to help, and at times it seems it makes it worse. Well if you have any suggestions at all that have worked for you please pass them on, I'm sure many people will benefit. Thanks.
Ellen G Registered User (10/8/00 1:58:33 pm) Reply	Re: Bad back! I'm sorry, but I have problems with posts like this. I know lots of cellists with no back problems, and lots of folks who have never touched a cello but have bad backs. And "a bad back" could mean any one of a zillion conditions. There are issues of exercise, weight, posture, sleeping habits, other activities you engage in. Where the pain is, what causes it, aggravates it. If you are tense when you play and tighten up, that is a totally different issue. To not know a single thing about you other than you play the cello and have back problems could lead to malpractice as we in the cello community try to address your concerns blindly. I don't mean for this to sound curt, which I have a feeling it does, but some specifics are required, someone who sees how you play and what shape you're in. Nobody here can do that for you. I just worry that you could end up making an adjustment in a totally wrong area which could do more harm than good. Be careful, whatever approach you take. I can't stop being a mom, I guess.
CordulaR Registered User (10/8/00 2:10:10 pm) Reply	Re: Bad back! the only advice that I think makes any sense : go find a good therapist, who can see what causes your pain. I benefitted a lot from a Mensendieck-therapist, who taught me how to find and keep a good posture, with or without cello. Cordula
sarah schenkman Registered User (10/8/00 4:36:51 pm) Reply	: Bad back! I tend to have back trouble from playing also and it got a lot better when my orchestra bought Wenger chairs for everyone and we were each able to select the heights we wanted. I got a short chair and liked it so much for orchestra that I bought myself the same one for practising at home. Much less back pain now.
Victor Sazer Registered User (10/8/00 6:44:48 pm) Reply	Bad back! See: home.earthlink.net/~vsazer/seating.html See if you find it helpful. It is true that non-cellists also have back problems but cellists have the highest incidence of any group of musicians. It is typically related to body use when playing the cello and can can often be easily eliminated with the proper information.
Dick500 Registered User (10/9/00 4:07:38 pm) Reply	Bad Back! Most all of my students who ever complained of back pain were actually complaining of muscle knots. They were misusing their back and shoulder muscles--hunching up to keep their pelvises from rolling over backwards while sitting in a forward position on a flat or, worse yet, backward sloping chair. Forward sloping chairs like the Wenger cello chair helped them, but if and only if they developed an awareness of how they were using their bodies while they were playing. Wedge cushions also help. So do various methods of propping up the pelvis, but not the back, while playing. These methods include a cushion behind the pelvis and, if your legs are long enough, sitting vertically with your pelvis jammed up against the back of the chair so that it won't roll backwards. Check out how many cellists who put in lots of hours behind their instruments use their chairs to help rather than hurt their posture.
zambocello Registered User (10/10/00 1:18:51 am) Reply	Prevention is the thing. Posture. Minimum unnecessary muscular tension. (HAH! Easier said than done! ) Exercise -- Gentle (or harder) aerobic exercise has whole-body benefits; weight training can help strength and endurance; sports are fun and can help all of the above. I know some people for whom cello playing is the most vigourous activity. Naturally, they have the most cello-related injuries.
sarah schenkman Registered User (10/10/00 1:18:53 pm) Reply	Yoga! The things I've done that have helped my back the most are the right height chair (mentioned earlier), wheels on the cello case (it's a real back saver) and yoga. Doing yoga several times a week keeps the spine limber and helps prevent injuries and soothes a sore back.
Corrina Connor Registered User (10/10/00 8:59:49 pm) Reply	Yoga, among other options Sarah beat me to it, but I was also going to cite this as a 'cure'. The lower back muscles are very important (is this the lumbar area), as they do a lot to support your body. Sitting up straight for a protracted length of time is quite hard on them. Therefore you need to do exercises that strengthen and supple this area. A good exercise is yoga, as it stretches the body as well. Also, a 30 minute brisk (as in march!) walk, with good body carriage. A swim (because your body is supported by water no strain is put on the body) In fact, any physical exercise should be beneficial. Low impact is more desirable though. Have a 5 minute break during practice and lie flat on a hard floor with your knees bent to unbend the creases. When you play, make sure that you are not arching your back in an effort to sit up 'straight'. Try not to let your head flop about. Look out in front as much as possible (looking down places strain on the spine). As regards the shoulder blades, this could be related to arm-tension (I used to get that). ~Corrina~
Lucy Clifford Registered User (10/10/00 9:09:37 pm) Reply	narrowing it down..... I think that you were rather stern, even as a mother talking! The thing about young cello players, and I would gather that yo yo jr is young, is that they often don't describe very well what is wrong. My students just say "my arm hurts" and don't go into where it hurts, or when it hurts, or what they are playing that makes it hurt. I don't think that anybody here would try to diagnose yo yo jr's complaint without seeing him/her. They have offered some help about ways to help with general discomfort, such as yoga or swimming, or different seats - it all seems quite sound. Perhaps yo yo jr just wants some reassurance before s/he speaks to their teacher or parent. Some of my students have been quite recitant about discussing any 'weakness' with me, although when we get down to it, often all that needs readjusting is elbow height or thumb placement on the bow and the problem (with some concentration on the student's part) is pretty much solved. Speaking as a teacher, I would prefer that young players came forward, however incoherently, with their concerns, rather than saying nothing and incubating a bigger problem. With the advice that yo yo jr has been given, perhaps s/he will be able to talk to the teacher/parent and have some ideas about solving the problem. Then they can address more specific issues. lucy clifford
CKCello Registered User (10/13/00 8:48:01 pm) Reply	Re:Bad Back I have a bad back also (the doc told me I have an extra vertibre in my lower back), so now and then it really really hurts me. The past week I have discovered that it hurt worse when I sat in a lower chair than a higher one, so I have been looking to invest in a short stool (22-24 inches). I probably looks strange, but it is the most comfortable position that I can be in with minimum pain. As for under the shoulder blades, my theorpist uses electronic pulses to help get the "knots" out. Good luck@!!! Ckcello
ollec Registered User (10/15/00 2:53:30 pm) Reply	Re: Bad back! I have heard lots of cellists complain about this problem, but oddly, I've never had it myself. I think the fact that I do yoga does help (I've been doing that longer than I've been playing cello, so I can't be sure). Another thing that I find helps me is to sit on the ABSOLUTE edge of your chair. It takes some getting used to, but it helps you sit up straighter and takes the strain off of your back.
Victor Sazer Registered User (10/15/00 7:48:58 pm) Reply	More on back pain A few thoughts about avoiding back pain: 1. Sit upright on your sitting bones not your tailbone and lift the crown of your head upward. a. Lifting your head so that it is on top of your spine with the rest of your body following in an upward direction expands your spine giving you maximum buoyancy and freedom of movement. Sagging, or slouching do the opposite.. (You can learn more about this from the Alexander Technique.) b. Leaning forward or even just tilting your head forward shifts weight in front of your center of gravity making you use extra (wasted) muscle power just to keep your body from falling forward. (Try sitting while leaning forward for a few minutes without your cello, as you tune in to how your body feels). Does you body give you any messages? 2. Sit on a high enough seat so that your knees are below your hips a. Sitting with your trunk and thighs forming a 90-degree angle, tends to make your sitting bones tilt instead of pointing downward. 3. Have your feet in front of your knees. a. Having them behind your knees tend to lock your knee and hip joints, impairing mobility. b. Having them behind your knees also makes your arms harder to lift (raise and lower your arms while they are extended in front of you to see the difference between how they feel with one foot placement and another). 4. Avoid pronating (turning inward) your upper arm. a. This practice is not only detrimental to your back, but often causes shoulder problems and tendonitis. (Try extending your right arm in front of you, and while being sensitive to the feeling in your shoulder and back, pronate your upper arm) How does it feel? b. Although your shoulder joint is one of the most versatile in your body, allowing easy upper arm to move in many directions, rotating inward is not one of them and is not without risk. Needless to say, there are other causes of back pain not addressed here, but the above are some of the most common issues that account for their high frequency among cellists.
zambocello Registered User (10/16/00 3:39:16 am) Reply	yoga and cello Maybe playing the cello is helping you avoid hurting yourself at yoga?
ruthann Registered User (10/16/00 12:44:09 pm) Reply	Re: Re:Bad Back After reading Victor Sazer's book about a year ago, I bought a collapsible, adjustable "keyboard" bench. I'm much more comfortable at the cello. I bring the bench with me to rehearsals and gigs, too. cello_suttonr@hotmail.com
sarah schenkman Registered User (10/16/00 2:09:18 pm) Reply	VERY FUNNY ZAMBO Is this the week you sit on the first stand? Hope you're behaving.
Makaveli Registered User (10/17/00 2:48:18 am) Reply	Re: Bad back! haven't read all of the replies, maybe someone mentioned this, but i, too, get occasional back pains, and i started noticing it comes when i'm trying to straighten it too much. youknow what i'm saying? sometimes people can be too focused on the idea of playing with a "straight back", they can overdo it.