I have played extensively under female conductors, and my feelings are mixed. I once played in an orchestra during a conducting school, at which there was a 50/50 mix of men and women conductors, tutors, and musicians. These conductors were all pretty sucessful to. I would say that 1 in 4 are 'too earnest', and yes I wish that most would crack more jokes. While I get incensed by time-wasting male maestros with their wise-cracks I also like a few laughs through a rehearsal. . . . .

One of my favourites at the moment is Marin Alsop, who studied with Bernstein, and is quite a Mahlerian, and a Barbarian. I've never had the experience of playing under her and couldn't say what she was like as a person.

Some of the female conductors who I've chatted with are somewhat different from the common herd. Some think themselves completely above the rest of us, some are inclinded to veer towards details that are, shall we say, domestic, and some are really very human.

I think that often their earnestness is coupled with a desire to prove that they are as good as a man, and to show their strength, which is typical of many women who go into 'male-dominated' fields. They have to seem tough, and it takes awhile before they can let down this exterior.

Strange as it may seem to many of you, many professional, **female***, chambermusic loving, orchestral musicians, have views similar to our own Ms Connor's. (is that what you do with an apostrophe?)Complete and sensitive, and grown up musicians, with 4 children in some cases, and a mind-dazzling technique, and superior artistry.

Patricia is correct - people won't trust somebody who is obviously a woman (and in many cases extremely beautiful, or attractive) trying to 'be a man'.

I know that was true, especially in the school where I was playing. The 'girl' who got on the podium, took us through the first Mvt. of Franck D minor, and then batted her lashes at the principal 2nd violin was an instant hit with **all the orchestra**. And I know that that sounds sexist. I don't think that she was playing on her looks, or her femininity, she just got straight through to us, and we liked it. She loved conducting, she loved the orchestra, she was happy to be there and knew what she was about. We appreciated this far more that any other posturing and asserting.
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Now, moving on from my opinions of female conductors, I will address the secondary theme of this debate: the issue of sexism. IMNHO, there was nothing sexist in
the original post on this thread. OK, maybe the clothing aspect was a bit, well, light, but maybe it was lighthearted. I personally object to the way that many people have taken this thread - as a hit on the head from a brick. I have spent many years in debating teams/groups, and this is just the sort of provocative post that I LOVE!

In a debate, one team puts foward a controversial statement, which happened here, then in the discussion which ensues the other teams tries to get the better of team A with ideas, and opinions, not 'you're stupid and immature'. Who is the other team to comment on stupidity and immaturity in people they've never met, never had a normal spoken conversation? Which is exactly the same as in cello chat. I have seen very few ideas in this thread, but a theme of blanket comdemnation.

I belong to several other email groups, and post on other message boards. People put forward controversial ideas all the time, and often DEBATE ensues, not blanket comdemnation.

I read Ms C's post, and thought, there's somebody with an interesting opinion, and I replied with my own ideas, and feelings on the topic. Very few other people have done this. Many,most in fact, have talked of a history of provocative posts (sounds like a history of persistant violent offending!) and onslaughts and blatant ageism!

Maybe C could have put some of her reasons from her reply into her first statement, which would have put forward a stronger case, but she didn't, unfortunately. If everybody thought that she was a 45 year old woman, with a love of chamber music, would the replies have been the same?

Couldn't a few more people try and think of an objective opinion?
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My next opinion is on the issues addressed about the role of women in our society. I was particularly interested in the aspects of women never being the equals of men, because men won't allow it, as well as the fear of violation etc.

I spent 2 years as a Samaritan-help line type person at my university. It was very distressing, and I heard some of the most harrowing stories, which should have been big news, but which were happening just about under my nose.

It is true - women are, not matter how much self-defence they know, or how swift their knee-up, voice box smashing reactions, potential victims of male violence. Sadly, during a time of violent attack, the man's strength, and adreniline will make it well nigh impossible for a woman to fight it off. If they do they are lucky more than anything.

I took defence lessons, and felt myself (at 16) to be invincible. The time when I was robbed, and did indeed try kicking, eye poking and larnyx smashing, showed me that if the man had had a knife, or been more serious about his attack, I would have been putty.

This is just all my opinion, and I could say more, and my husband calls.....

Edited by: Lucy Clifford at: 3/2/01 4:38:37 pm

Edited by: Dorie Straus  at: 3/2/01 7:11:40 pm