| Author |
Subject |
Corrina
Connor
Moderator
(2/28/01 12:24:45 am)
Reply |
Female
Conductors.
Personally I disapprove of them, if
you must know: they are far to *earnest* for my liking, and of
course there is the clothing problem (unless one is Marlene
Dietrich, of course).
I find their choice of ensemble
(clothing) for conducting is always rather bank-tellerish, and I
feel that somebody needs to set down a uniform for them, than is
forgiving to the vageries of the female anatomy (unlike the cello,
Carocello 
)
What prompted me to ask this question was recent attendance
at a symphonic concert, where a female aquaintance expressed
irritation at the fact that the conductor-domain is so dominated
with men. This person, BTW, does not play in any sort of
orchestra.
I was just wondering, are they, er,
'lunatics'?
Now all the 'conciousness raised' women on this
board can pelt me.
~Corrina~
|
Dorie
Straus 
Moderator
(2/28/01 5:09:10 am)
Reply |
Pelt,
Pelt, Pelt, Pelt, ...bank-tellerish! Pelt
|
jekerry
Registered User
(2/28/01 8:16:33 am)
Reply |
Marlene
Dietrich -- just trying to picture it
hmmmmm . . . . I would love to see
Marlene Dietrich conduct. Wow! What a thought. What a woman.
Sigh
I'd have season tickets to that
orchestra!
Jane
|
mcello
Registered User
(2/28/01 8:47:06 am)
Reply |
Interesting
One orchestra that I sub for has
just gotten a new female conductor and after her first concert, one
of the men in the orchestra commented that he wished she would wear
something feminine and not something that was a female version of a
tux. I've also heard this complaint regarding a concert mistress in
the area. I think the problem is that music has been so dominated by
men until the last 20 plus years, that women have to find their way.
I personally think these women dress the way they do, because it
sends a message of authority to the orchestra, the alternate is
"look at my sexy dress." Then the orchestra would be talking about
what a bimbo they were. They really are between a rock and a hard
place.
|
Richie
Henderson
Registered User
(2/28/01 9:28:56 am)
Reply |
Ann
Manson
I must say that I was initially
opposed to this idea of female conductors. I'm from Kansas City and
recently we obtained a new female conductor. The idea of a female
conductor in Kansas City was appalling to me. After I saw Ann Manson
conduct the first time my opinion instantly changed. She is really
an amazing conductor and Kansas City Symphony is very lucky to have
her. Ann Manson shows an amazing amount authority while conducting.
It seems as if you can feel the orchestra respecting her. I heard
recently that she's premired pieces as a guest conductor with St.
Paul Chamber orchestra, London Philharmonic, and some other major
orchestra. I think she will be a big name in music in the near
future.
|
ruthann
Registered User
(2/28/01 9:51:43 am)
Reply |
Re:
Female Conductors.
You disapprove of female
conductors...because of their clothes? Sounds like a pretty
neanderthal attitude to me. Good grief! That sounds just like Theo
and his "all women play in a delicate manner" remarks. Extremely
sexist and demeaning.
cello_suttonr@hotmail.com
|
sarah
schenkman
Registered User
(2/28/01 11:55:55 am)
Reply |
Re:
Female Conductors.
Male, female - who cares. I'd just
like the conductor to be good. or even competent.
|
Patricia2
Registered User
(2/28/01 12:13:38 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Female Conductors.
A very experienced teacher friend of
mine years ago told me how she'd experimented with dresses and
pants, and it was sooooo clear she got a great deal more cooperation
(respect?) when she wore pants.
She happened to be an
extremely effective (language) teacher with a very strong
personality -- no question ever who was in charge in her classroom.
(I know, as she had not only been my teacher, I later had a chance
to observe her when I was a student teacher.)
So, she mostly
wore pants -- but occasionally a dress, just to shake them up a
little.
Now, this was some yrs ago.....but something tells me not
a lot has changed.
On the other hand, I worked with a woman
in the financial industry who was quite highly placed and dealt with
central banks around the globe.
Everyone was competing for this
business, including lots of other high-ranking women -- but she
often was more successful, she was convinced, because she did NOT
wear suits, she wore dresses. Now, she also happened to be of Cuban
background, and spoke fluent Spanish, and some of these customers
were in Hispanic countries (but not all) -- so surely this had
something to do with it.
She'd say, people don't trust a woman
who seems to be trying to be a man -- she was married, and very
proper, but very comfortable with herself; she had no problem with
the preliminary flirting, jokes, whatever, and then getting down to
business; again, she was very successful. And again, it's a cultural
thing, of course, in all its variations.
|
G
M Stucka
Registered User
(2/28/01 12:27:13 pm)
Reply |
I'm
with Sarah!!
|
Paul
Tseng ICS Staff 
Administrator
(2/28/01 1:40:11 pm)
Reply
 |
Re:
Female Conductors.
I don't really think gender has any
bearing on a musician's abillity to produce good results, Corinna.
Regardless of if their instrument is the cello, or an
orchestra.
The question really is, is this conductor a good
musician and technician. As far as I know, the only anatomy needed
for a conductor is found on both sexes of our species.
Quote:
"Personally I disapprove of them, if you must know: they are far
to *earnest* for my liking"
I'm sure not every
female conductor would be considered toO earnest. Unless you've
heard/seen every single female conductor in existence, you should
probably keep your mind a bit more open. The two female conductors I
worked with while working in Maryland didn't fit this
profile.
I for one will not pelt. Let he/she who is
blameless, cast the first pelt.
Paul Tseng
My Website
Alexander's website
MP3!
|
Tracie
Price 
Registered User
(2/28/01 1:52:09 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Female Conductors.
In my limited experience, the female
conductors I've worked with have always been better than their male
counterparts. I think to some extent this is possibly because they
have to work harder than a man to get the same post. Meaning-- the
glass ceiling is definitely there! I was lucky as an undergrad to
work with Madeline Schatz who was a wonderful conductor, and whose
musical philosophies definitely had a positive influence on
me.
As far as dress goes...
Let 'em wear what is
comfortable as long as it isn't distracting. Even male conductors
don't always wear tuxedos these days (Eschenbach for one) A book
came into the music library last week called "Women Performing
Music" by Beth Macleod and it actually includes an entire chapter
that discusses attire for female conductors, and how hard it is for
them to find something appropriate. It's either too manish or too
feminine it seems.
Sigh.
Anyway... I must flee
now.
|
Betsy
C 
Registered User
(2/28/01 5:03:08 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Female Conductors. (to Corrina)
Corrina, I was surprised by your
post. A few weeks ago, you had posted something about sexism you
encountered while swimming, that a group of males seemed peeved to
be bested by a woman, and at the time you complained vociferously
about their neanderthal attitudes. Now you complain about the
overearnestness of female conductors in general, which does seem
sexist to me. Dear young woman, you can't have it both ways! Maybe a
little pondering about what it is that you really think and feel
about women is in order. I am not trying to be harsh; it's just that
the knife does cut both ways. I personally feel that until WE women
stop being our own worst enemies at times, we'll possibly not get
the respect we should have. You know, the old 'divide and conquer'
thing! I'd love to see a little more real 'sisterhood' in th best
possible way; women lifting each other up, and encouraging each
other. I am not a strident feminist, but really believe that we
women ought to be more supportive of each other where at all
possible.
|
MaryK
Registered
User
(2/28/01 5:28:17 pm)
Reply
 |
Re:
Female Conductors.
Oh for heaven's sake, Corrinna, I
can only hope when you start university your horizons are broadened
and your mind opens up a bit. You, at age 18, "disapprove" of female
conductors because they are too "earnest." And just how many
conductors have you played under, in how many ensembles, in how many
different places in your many years of musical experience? Seems to
me you have absolutely no basis yet to compare conductors, much less
make sweeping, glittering generalizations based on gender. I'm in
Sarah's corner, competence is what counts.
MaryK
|
Nvbob7
Registered User
(2/28/01 5:43:52 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Female Conductors. (to Corrina)
Corrina,
Betsy really hit the
nail on the head. You can't complain about us men being sexists when
clearly you have sexist attitudes yourself.
This sort of
duplicity is common in our society. For example, an all male
institution like Virginia Military Institute is forced to accept
women, but it's funny that you don't hear about a male scholar
taking Wellseley or St. Mary's College to court for admission. In
the business world I see women executives dressed in capri pants and
four inch heels complain about men ogling them. I saw a cartoon in
the Wall Street Journal that captured what I'm trying to say
best:
A woman was sitting in a plastic surgeons office
talking about a breast augmentation procedure. She said, "I want
them big enough so I can yell at men for looking at
them."
What it boils down to is that women seem less sure of
their role than men (and believe me, we haven't been sure since the
Eisenhower administration). It would help the cause if women judged
each individual woman on her own merits and not make crass
generalizations.
The next step would be to treat men this
way. We might learn from example. (If a man talks in the forest, and
no woman hears him, is he still wrong?)
For my part I play
for a female conductor and I don't care if she shows up in a burlap
bag. She is a great conductor, we're lucky to have her, we are
better musicians because of her and I learn something everytime she
picks up a baton.
Bob Short
|
Corrina
Connor
Moderator
(3/1/01 4:24:14 am)
Reply |
I never
said I didn't like them
and I didn't say that they can't do
their job, or that they are not excellent musicians, and sometimes
better than their male counterparts, I just said that I *disapprove*
of them, which is completely different - for the same reason that I
disapprove of male midwives.......and the reason that they don't
call them midhusbands (is that sexist?)
Let us just say that
I feel uncomfortable with them, maybe in the same way which men feel
about consulting a urologist about various intimate matters (well,
maybe not quite.)
I have no objection to:
female
doctors
" " " lawyers
" " " astrophysicists
" " " chimny
sweeps
" " " tuba players
" " " band masters
" " " concert
masters
" " " choir conductors
" " " cello players
" "
" road workers
" " " long distance truck drivers
" " " boxers
and weightlifters
firewomen
policewomen
As it
happens I admire any female endeavour in male dominated. Surely if I
disapproved of women entering all male-dominated worlds I would be
sexist.
I also appreciate their trouble with finding
appropriate clothing, and hope that some famous designer will be
able to come up with something better. That was merely an
aside.
In order to not make generalisations, I might
add that I have played quite a bit with 3 different female
conductors, and I have not enjoyed it one bit - for these
reasons:
1) their chronic disorganisation
2) compulsion to
discuss the effects of pregnancy upon conducting, and their plans
for the impending birth.
3) compulsion to share bizarre and
tedious anecdotes with the orchestra, thus making the rehearsal much
longer.
4) the fact that they constantly compared their
ability to 'multi-task' with that of the male members of their
profession, and gave a long preamble over the prejudice against
women conductors, and how they had over come this.
I
realise that (1) and (3) could be true of male conductors, but (2) I
found distastful, and unnecesary, and far to graphic considering
that we were in a church at the time (and a very beautiful church -
which men built, and women keep clean)
Regarding(4) There is
nothing more irritating to me than women who have to give a long
preamble about how they feel about breaking into a male-dominated
profession. Going on about it merely makes men, whom they are trying
to prove themselves against, deride them, and irritates other women
(intelligent ones at that).
We have a friend who was one of
the first top female lawyers in NZ - otherwise known as a Crown
Lawyer. She topped her class, and has had more, and greater sucesses
that her male school-fellows in the last years.
What I
admire about her is that she has never used her female state to gain
sympathy, or complained about any sort of prejudice. She got on with
her work, and didn't ever say that it was harder for her. If it
*was* she has overcome it, without any sort of complaint. As it
happens she is also brilliant at her job.She certainly doesnt' feel
that she has anything to prove.
Broaden my horizons? Is there
a suggested reading list?
I might add that I am familiar
with
The Beauty Myth - Naomi Wolf
Backlasg - Susan
Faludi
The Female Eunuch - Germaine Greer
The Second Sex -
Simone de Beauvoire
However, to my incredibly narrow and
sexist mind, females will never, ever, achieve equality with men,
and if it comes to that, who wants to? Not until women can walk
around in public without a top on, like men do, without fear of
derision, will be that day.
The fact is that unfortunately
women will never be safe from from attack or violation from men,
because thousands of years of culture programming has meant that
men, because of their base natures will have power, even if it is
not in the board room.
In this country at the moment women
are holding more 'power' than ever before, as Prime Minister,Leader
of the Opposition and Chief of Justice and numerous other positions.
Unfortunately while they are very clever, and in no way inferior to
their male predecessors, they will never be considered, by a large
amont of the male population, as equal.
Regarding the
pool incident - maybe the guys were sexist, but I could swim faster
so does it matter? What I complained about there was lack of common
courtesy, and its parallels on the roads.
I seem to have got
away from conductors, but those is my thoughts, on the way which the
discussion has gone.
Is it not just as bad for a whole lot of
women to pelt one, just for expressing an opinion? How is it
possible for an 'unbroadened' mind to broaden in the face of so much
censure - instead of thinking through one's statements, ammending
and qualifying, one immediately thinks one is wrong.
Now I'm
going to play Bach on my cello - something of which he probably
wouldn't have
approved.
|
Corrina
Connor
Moderator
(3/1/01 4:24:50 am)
Reply |
Re:
Marlene Dietrich -- just trying to picture it
I'm sure that she'd do a darned good
job.
|
Dorie
Straus
Moderator
(3/1/01 6:33:44 am)
Reply |
Re: I
never said I didn't like them
Corrina, sometimes you write very
provocative posts. We're sitting here calmly reading CC and then
these posts, like your initial one here stating your disapproval,
feel like we got hit in the head with a brick. Of course people are
going to respond the way they do.
I think the thing that
rings the most clear in your follow-up here is the last thought:
Bach might not have approved of a woman cellist playing his
music.
What you're doing is supporting the fact that great
change takes time, lots of it. Perhaps as more women become doctors
we won't have to go to a male urologist; we'll have a choice. As
time goes on and more women become conductors, you'll find they will
tell silly jokes, take things in the wrong tempo, seat their
orchestras in wrong seating number whatever, or be really good at
what they do with all the human gifts and quirks their males
counterparts have.
|
KeithHall
Registered User
(3/1/01 8:05:58 am)
Reply |
Oh,
Dear......................
What a thread!! Definately one for
the archives!
Keith
|
me4cello
Registered User
(3/1/01 8:56:40 am)
Reply |
Never
mind Corrina
maybe you'll find that you stop
hating female conductors and learn to love chamber music when you
grow up.....
|
Paul
Tseng ICS Staff
Administrator
(3/1/01 2:46:54 pm)
Reply
 |
Re: I
never said I didn't like them
Corinna,
Thanks for
qualifying your statement (somewhat) . It sounds to me that you
didn't mean for a whole big controversy to ensue. However, it was
inevitable based on how you first worded your post. Of course, you
knew what you meant. But based on the reactions that followed,
others either didn't know or didn't believe you meant what you
eventually clarified.
I suppose no one could argue with the
fact that you disapproved of the 4 points that the 3 female
conductors you worked with exhibited. Perhaps if you'd been that
specific from the start you'd have a few less negative
reactions?
Anyway, I've never met a female conductor who fits
the description of the ones you've encountered.
It's clear
that you don't approve of those 3 women conductors. But would you
carry the same disapproval for ALL female conductors before you've
even met them? Or would you assume or expect that other female
conductors will exhibit any or all of those 4 traits which you
disapprove of?
Tricky, I'd like to know if you've already
thought about the aforementioned questions and what your answers
were. If not, I'd still be interested in knowing how you'd answer
those questions after giving it some thought.
Quote:
" How is it possible for an 'unbroadened' mind to broaden in the
face of so much censure "
Oh no! not that word
again!!! I don't
perceive this as censure...it's a dialogue. You expressed your
disapproval for somethings and others have expressed their
disapproval as well.
In any case, perhaps you were
misunderstood? I know personal from personal experience how
unpleasant being misunderstood can be. But we live and learn,
hopefully.
(What I meant is that I live and learn and
hopefully learn to articulate myself cleary so as to reduce the
chance of misunderstanding...obviosly, I'm not always sucessful and
part of it depends on the listener's trust in your intentions. We
all live to break free from stereotypes that others have for us for
one reason or another, don't we?)
Please don't feel that you
are being censured (censored?).
Paul Tseng
My Website
Alexander's website
MP3!
|
Betsy
C
Registered User
(3/1/01 3:29:50 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Female Conductors.
I appreciated Paul's voice of reason
post here. To Corrina, in all honesty, you have a history of
provocative posts. This is nothing new. You have every right to
state your opinion, as do I and others here. Just be aware that
whenever you start a provocative thread, you must be willing and
able to understand that you may receive equally provocative answers.
Why do you start these types of threads if not for some type of
reaction? When we do react and give our opinions, you have a
tendency to get defensive. Dialogue involves give and take, and you
may learn from what others post, just as there is the potential that
we may learn from you. You seem to be an intelligent young woman,
but the wisdom to realize that your words have consequences seems to
be lacking. If you start a thread such as this one in the future, I
am not sure that I will respond again. You most likely won't miss my
response, and that does not matter. Rather than get defensive, if
you post something that another will have an opposite opinion about,
open your mind to their opinions. You may see another perspective,
get additional understanding, and THAT is the beginning of maturity
and wisdom IMHO.
Edited by: Betsy
C at: 3/1/01 3:29:50
pm
| |
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