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Internet Cello Society Forums > Instruments and Equipment > "GO FIGURE"
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Len Thompson Registered User (3/12/01 5:51:25 pm) Reply	"GO FIGURE" I have often wondered, but never asked about figured vs. non-figured woods, as used in instrument construction. I certainly like the looks of a nice piece of figured wood over a more plain piece, but I'm wondering if indeed the figured woods are the same, better or worst than a more plain piece of tone wood. I can see the maker who is selecting wood for a cello that will sell for 20k, pass by the plain wood for the fancy, all for eye appeal. Now I'm sure that's not the case totally, but it must be to a certain extent. Certain types of figured wood result from organizims that invade the wood, such as burl wood, at least this is what I have heard. Other types like curly, tiger and birdseye,I'm not sure. I'm just wondering if these figured woods can or do in fact have any more value than good tone wood, aside from their looks? Anyone out there who can enlighten some on this subject. I recently saw a photo of a Strad that looked like it had very plain looking wood. Anybody ever played one that was a work of art, but sounded like something much less? Just thinking out loud here! Len
cellochris99 Registered User (3/13/01 4:49:36 am) Reply	re:"go figure" Well, what I've heard is that the tiger-striped maple that you see alot in ribs and backs/neck etc. of higher $ cellos, is more for asthetic purposes than particularly for sound. The ribs, to my knowlege, are more for structural solidity than for sound vibration, which is why they use maple,-because it's light and strong. However, the backplates ARE intended to vibrate as their primary purpose, but they are constantly under alot of structural pressure from the soundpost, for that reason they are usually made of maple. I do know for sure that maple is sold in different "grades" and that some qualities in such are what luthiers seek out for their finer instruments. However, I don't think it's a specific "figure" that they are looking for, it's more of a resonance characteristic found in tree woods that have had certain growing conditions over the tree's life. The fact that there happens to be a pretty design in that wood is more of a coincidence than anything. Asthetic beauty can and does sell instruments, luthiers are aware of this too, however. Chris
Len Thompson Registered User (3/13/01 10:04:32 am) Reply	Re: re:"go figure" Thanks for the reply Chris, your probably right on track. I was just trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill! Curious George
Br Martin Registered User (3/13/01 11:54:03 am) Reply	Re: re:"go figure" As a maker I'm naturally intrigued by this subject. Basically I've found that when people are going to spend a lot of money they like to get something that's beautiful to look at too. Many of the best old cellos have rather plain maple, or are made from poplar or other "cheaper" woods. I think it probably depended on how much money they and their customer had to spend, and what was available. Personally, I'm beginning to think that the plainer maple is better for sound, but then I'll probably change my mind again next week. I've got to the point though where I'm hesitant to use plainer wood, becuase it just isn't what people usually want. I'd like to say that tone comes first, but the looks definitely have to appeal to the buyer. Stradivari was a very successful maker in his own time, and could afford to by very handsome maple from the Carpathian Mountains, although as you pointed out, this is not always seen in his instruments. Very often the good Italian makers used highly flamed wood for the backs and sides, but very plain maple for the necks because it made them easier to carve. I currently have some very old highly flamed slab cut maple that is extremely hard to carve a back out of, and I wouldn't think of trying to make a neck out of it. I'd love to get ahold of some Lombardy poplar for the backs of some cellos and basses. Spruce has always been the choice for tops.
TerryM Registered User (3/13/01 2:14:28 pm) Reply	Some information on "Fiddleback" maple THE MYSTERY OF FIDDLEBACK MAPLE Demonstrating a rare depth and dimensionality, Fiddleback Maple is one of the world's most-prized hardwoods. The Fiddleback Maple figuring is occasionally found in other hardwoods, including walnut, koa, ash and, rarely, other domestic and imported hardwoods. Fiddleback Maple is also known as 'Flame Maple', 'Tiger Maple', 'Curly Maple', or 'Tigerstripe Maple'. Fiddleback Maple exhibits a dramatic change in the individual stripes or lines. As the incident angle of the light is slightly altered, the dark stripe becomes a light stripe, and the light stripe becomes dark. This visual phenomenon is known as 'chatoyancy' in the gemstone world, and its most dramatic form is seen in catseye chrysoberyl. True Fiddleback figuring is not to be confused with "compression grain" or "stress grain" found where roots merge into the bole and also on the underside of large limbs. Some differentiate between Curly and Fiddleback figuring. For instance, curly cherry and curly birch can exhibit much swirls, waves and curls, though they are far more irregular and large, often appearing as flattened arches stacked one on top of another over the length of the board. Fiddleback Maple (Flame Maple, Tiger Maple) grain is generally considered to be more pronounced with tighter striping, sometimes measured as tight as several stripes per inch. Unlike many forms of curly grain, Fiddleback describes a series of tight, parallel (or nearly parallel) stripes running perpendicular to the length of the board. In the United States, most use the terms Fiddleback Maple and Curly Maple synonymously. Fiddleback Maple boasts a three-dimensional series of alternately bright and dark stripes that shade into one another as the wood is slightly moved, thus producing an illusion of actual waves. Changes in brightness result from differential light reflection. Relatively high absorption by exposed fiber ends produces dark bands; reflection and diffraction from fiber walls cause bright bands. Because the fiber walls are curved sharply and act as concave or convex reflecting surfaces, any change in angle of view or incident light makes the apparent waves seem to shift. Again, the same light stripe becomes a dark stripe and vice-versa. The illusion of undulations results from regular and repeated, parallel, wavy lines that produce an interference pattern on the exposed plane. Modern botany and science still cannot adequately account for what exactly causes the visually-stunning figuring in Fiddleback Maple (also known as Flame Maple, Curly Maple, Tiger Maple, Tigerstripe Maple). In conclusion, then, the cause(s) of the rare figuring seen in Fiddleback Maple is yet unknown. The mystery of Fiddleback Maple, in spite of electron microscopes and huge advances in the fields of wood technology, plant genetics, etc., for now remains unrevealed. While the precise cause of the Mystery of Fiddleback Maple must remain, at present, unknown, the result is well-known, greatly esteemed, and eagerly sought by wood aficionados as Fiddleback Maple- one of the world's most transfixingly beautiful exotic hardwoods.
Len Thompson Registered User (3/13/01 9:56:49 pm) Reply	Re: Some information on "Fiddleback" maple Excellent, and interesting feedback folks. Just what I was looking for, and it still leaves me wondering if plain is better than fancy? I beleive that in the case of the maple wood, it has to be cut in a certain way to allow the stripes to show. Quater sawn is what I think they call it. Looking at the but end of the log you would saw boards from the center of the outside of the log, down to the center of the inside, rather than the usual slices from top to bottom. So you can see it would take a sizable log to yeald a board wide enough for half a cello back. And the logs I understand can sell for 30k plus if they contain this nice figuring. So you luthiers can pick and choose what wood you want when shopping, at least according to what is available. So if your making an expensive cello, do you choose for looks as much as sound, or is there a real compromise there?? Still Curious, George
DWThomas Registered User (3/13/01 11:54:23 pm) Reply	Heh heh, just get out your credit card! Northern Tonewoods has a little bit about it. hvgb.net/~tonewood/ I believe the ultimate trick for a two-piece back or top is to split the wood on lines radial to the heart of the log. Two adjacent wedges will then have similar grain. A piece looks like a skinny piece of pie from the end. The thick outer edges go together for the middle where the heavy arching and carving is. The thin section from the inner part of the log becomes the outer edge of the back. This would all be much easier to draw than to describe in words (I think) . Dave
Christopher Chan Registered User (3/14/01 12:34:44 am) Reply	Re: "GO FIGURE" It is my understanding that figured maple is more difficult to bend than plain perhaps it is a tribute to a maker's skill and artistry when he/she uses figured woods. Also poplar is easier to carve than maple and supposedly gives the cello a different timbre. It maybe simply coincidence but of the few cellos that i have played which had poplar backs, all sounded fantastic. Personally i think the knots found in some poplar backs give the cello a lot of character. so that's my $.02
TerryM Registered User (3/14/01 8:42:06 am) Reply	Re: "GO FIGURE" I have done some woodworking with figured maple and can attest to the fact that it is difficult to work with. In talking to luthiers they have indicated the same thing, however, they do choose wood for looks as well as sound. New instruments that have nice figure tend to sell for more. If you look at some of the "bangers" that professional musicians play, you will see that a lot of them are chosen on the basis of how they respond and sound and not on the basis of looks. In the end, it is what comes out that makes the difference. For this reason I think you can buy a good sounding instrument for a decent price if you are not hung up on a makers name, investment potential, look of the instrument, etc. German made instruments of the late 1800s can be good value, when compared to Italian made instruments that are, in my opinion, highly over-valued. Dollar for dollar one can do better, with resect to sound quality per dollar, with a good quality German cello than an Italian made instrument. However, the Italian made instrument will, most often, out-perform the German instrument when it comes to re-sale value. Late last year I had the opportunity to spend some time with my former teacher and the "Bonjour" Strad that was on loan to her for a concert. It was a beautiful sounding instrument, but it was rather a plain looking cello, not highly figured at all and of a darkish brown color. I think a lot of hype surrounds the whole instrument valuation and a lot of self-serving appraisers (who have fat commissions to gain) have valued these instruments beyond reality. Collectors are willing to pay and therefore they get their prices and commissions. Most any instrument will appreciate somewhat over time, but those that have it all - looks, great sound and a proper pedigree will always command more money in a marketplace dominated by speculators and investors. Terry
Len Thompson Registered User (3/14/01 4:29:20 pm) Reply	Re: "GO FIGURE" I mentioned earlier that foreign organizims were the cause for burl wood, however, I was wrong. It's found in the crotch of the tree branch/trunk area, also in the stump, and the "burl" of the tree. Just a correction!