| Author |
Subject |
rdsenkowski
Registered User
(3/10/01 8:28:12 pm)
Reply |
Bows?
HELP! What should I really be looking for?
I am an adult beginner (haven't even
touched my cello yet). I have just purchased a Yamaha Silent
Electric Cello that wont be delivered for a couple of weeks (I know,
I'm no purist). I am now shopping a bow. What makers should I avoid?
I have found a Knoll CB40: Octagonal Pernambuco stick, fully mounted
ebony frog with lined slide and Parisian eye, three-part button,
sterling silver and leather grip for $359/ supposedly lists for
$675. Please save me from myself if I am about to make a stupid
purchase.
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lblake
Registered
User
(3/10/01 9:33:03 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Bows? HELP! What should I really be looking for?
I know I've tried that bow before,
and I don't remember too well what I thought of it, except that that
price sounds reasonable. However, if you're going to be playing on
an electric cello, and are no purist, I think you may want to look
into a carbon-fiber bow.
If you're looking not to spend much
(especially <$500), then I think you would get a lot more bow for
the price with a carbon-fiber bow. There are also some benefits to
carbon-fiber bows, like that they are practically indestructable.
Shar has an excellent bow guide that may give you an idea
what you should be looking for. But, the best thing is to try lots
of different bows - in many price ranges - especially higher ranges.
If you try higher priced bows, the different qualities of bows
become more apparent - the different sounds/voices, the amount of
responsiveness, the balance, etc. (on the other hand, they also
might spoil you, so be careful).
You will probably pretty
quickly be able to feel the differences between bows. Trust what you
feel. Balance is one of the characteristics I hear praised or
despised most. Especially in the lower-priced bows.
When I
bought my first bow, I thought of spending less, and my teacher made
a point that I still carry with me: this is something I will be
using every day, that will have a significant effect on my enjoyment
of playing the cello. For that, it was worth a couple hundred extra
for the bow I liked best. I felt it was a good point, and I haven't
regretted getting the bow I wanted.
carbon-fiber bows to
try: Arcus is my favourite (but I think more than $500)... then,
there are Coda, Glasser, Musicary. The only one I haven't tried is
the Musicary.
I think the Glasser is an ugly thing, but I
think it's a tremendous value for the price. I've heard good things
about all these brands, though - and some bad things about some,
too.
There - a whole pile of my opinions, all in one message!
 Have fun!
Let us know how you like it once you get your cello! Electric is not
a bad compromise, in my opinion, especially for a beginner's cello.
(as long as you don't want to play in orchestra, anyway!)
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rdsenkowski
Registered User
(3/10/01 9:42:11 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Bows? HELP! What should I really be looking for?
Thank you so much for the thoughtful
reply. Off to research the makers you list. Again, thanks!
|
rdsenkowski
Registered User
(3/10/01 10:06:42 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Bows? HELP! What should I really be looking for?
Is there a market for used bows? Is
buying used wise? Where would one find used bows being sold on the
internet? My problem is that where I live music stores are not that
well stocked or that learned.
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Dorie
Straus 
Moderator
(3/11/01 5:10:13 am)
Reply |
Re:
Bows? HELP! What should I really be looking for?
First of all, regarding list/our
price - forget list/our price when it comes to musical instruments.
This is a marketing thing that's been used since the beginning of
time. Some kind of tradition to make you think you'r getting a
deal.
The carbon fiber suggestion is a good one. I have a
Coda Classic but the Conservatory model is a good bow, too. If you
stay with the cello and eventually get a regular wooden one, the
carbon fiber bow will make the transition.
As for bow resale
market. If you're buying a student bow, as you are, there won't be
much of a resale market - they tend to travel with the cellos they
came with and get sold with them down the line.
For all of
this research and trial it wouldn't be a bad idea to go to:
http://www.cellos2go.com/
That's
our Ellen from the boards here. Besides getting things on trial,
there's a ton of info there. She's an ethical person, too.
Edited by: Dorie
Straus at: 3/11/01 5:10:13 am
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Ellen
G 
Registered User
(3/11/01 9:24:31 am)
Reply |
Re:
Bows? HELP! What should I really be looking for?
There are a lot of reputable makers
out there in affordable price ranges, and Knoll is one of them. But
there are a lot of differences between bows in the same model from
the same maker. The weight and balance points will vary, frequently
between 79 grams to about 83 or more. That makes a big difference.
It's also the way the weight is distributed in the bow. If you lined
a bunch of bows up, some would be thicker in some parts, thinner in
others. You notice differences in windings. Some have more weight at
the frog, some at the tip. Some have the leather closer to the frog
(which I personally hate) and others have a space which I find more
comfortable. Some people like to employ bow grips over the top of
what is on the bow. Some bows have a faux whalebone winding, which
is either visually appealing (or not) to the buyer.
What
feels good to a more experienced player is different than what feels
comfortable to a brand new player because, actually, hardly anything
feels good because you don't know what you're supposed to be doing!!
And the very bow one player can't stand is precisely the bow someone
else has been looking for. You are too new to know how you play yet,
so let your teacher guide you on a bow that is well made and
balanced, but plan on wanting to make a change that suits YOU as you
get more experience. It's sort of like shoes in a sense. You get a
pair that you think feels good, and then the more time you spend
with them, you start noticing things that don't feel too
comfortable.
Things like the button, being lined, round or
octagonal, and the winding affect the price more than the
playability. People trying to economize generally use lesser wood
and lesser components to go with it. The winding will be nickel or
nickel silver because it's less expensive. But it weights the bow
and does its job just as well. Parts on the button may be plastic or
silver, but they do their job just the same. An ebony frog without a
Parisian eye performs no differently than a bow with one. And many
bows have no eye. You start getting into aesthetics, enhancements
that are more visual than functional. It is just sort of "natural"
if you are using better wood, to complete the package with better
parts.
On the other side, more expensive parts are likely to
be machined better; your bow should be less likely to have problems.
Parts line up better, fit better, screw better, etc. What you would
expect. Some of the Chinese pernambuco bows have nice sticks, but
you will notice some sharp edges on the button and slide. These
parts can be replaced if you feel the stick and bow in general is a
good buy.
Composite bows should be evaluated just like any
wood bow, for comfort, weight, control, which is something you're
not really able to do right now. (Enter the teacher.) I reiterate,
for every person that likes a bow or a feature, there will be one
who doesn't and selects something else based on their current level
of experience. That is not to say that down the road they won't
develop enough to appreciate qualities in a bow they just weren't
ready for at the time. If you are concerned about your bow being
durable (like kids at rehearsal where things get sat on and knocked
off stands a lot) then composite is a good investment.
Edited by: Ellen
G at: 3/11/01 9:24:31 am
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rdsenkowski
Registered User
(3/11/01 10:05:25 am)
Reply |
Re:
Bows? HELP! What should I really be looking for?
Thanks Dorie & Ellen. I haven't
a teacher. I am on my own until I can find one. There are a lot of
psuedo instructors - people who say they can teach every instrument
ever made. But I have not found anyone who teaches cello, string
instruments, exclusively. There are classes available at the
community college, but not at night. Until I can find quality
instruction, I am on my own.
My cello will be here in two
weeks and I would like to have chosen and recieved a bow by then.
The Arcus and Coda Classic are too much (I wish they weren't) The
Coda Conservatory is on the high end of my comfort zone ($475)and I
can't help but wonder if I wouldn't be as well served by the Glasser
4000 ($245), the Pernambuco Knoll CB40 ($359)or the Brazilwood Baush
($201). After reading about bows, I am shying away from Brazilwood
and leaning toward the composites.
My hope is that I fall
madly in love with the cello, but what if I find that instead of
hands I have feet and cannot make a pleasant sound to save my life?
I don't want a $50 dollar bow as it may facilitate an unpleasant
experience; but on the other hand, I don't want to purchase a bow
beyond my experience level. If you were me and had to make a choice,
what choice would you make?
|
Bobbie
Registered
User
(3/11/01 10:30:29 am)
Reply |
Re:
Bows? HELP! What should I really be looking for?
At the very beginning point the bow
isn't a key factor in how good you are, and you can expect to make
some not-so-nice sounds in the beginnning, so don't let that be your
guide. If you were absolutely sure you wanted to keep playing, I'd
go for the Coda Conservatory bow but it would not hurt at this stage
to have an extremely basic bow (even a $50 one.) Whatever you get,
though, ask them to rosin it for you. Otherwise you won't know how
much rosin it should have and it can be very hard to "Start" new
hair on a bow, especially a carbon fiber bow. While a good music
store can send you a few bows to try, you aren't going to know a
good bow from not a good bow if you don't yet know how to use it, so
it wouldn't be very helpful.
I'd also suggest, since you are
on your own, that you get the first Suzuki book AND CD and listen so
you know what you should sound like (in the far off future... not
immediately.) And also get a method book that gives more instruction
on how to play. Potter's "The Art of Cello Playing" is good. Where
are you? You might be able to find a teacher through someone on the
main board.
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rdsenkowski
Registered User
(3/11/01 10:47:02 am)
Reply |
Re:
Bows? HELP! What should I really be looking for?
Thanks, Bobbie. I live in Cocoa
Beach, FL. Any good teachers in my part of the woods?
|
DWThomas
Registered User
(3/11/01 11:18:46 am)
Reply |
Re:
Bows? HELP! What should I really be looking for?
You've already gotten some good
advice. I started out with the fiberglass stick, synthetic hair
Glasser that came with my El Cheapo(tm) plywood special which I
acquired as a used "outfit." (I think the bow sells new for about
forty bucks!) It became pretty obvious rather quickly that the bow
was definitely undershooting the mark.
I wound up about a
year or so back getting four pernambuco bows in from Shar (they send
up to 4 out for $15 plus you pay for insured return shipping). I'm
sure Ellen at cellos2go will do something similar. I selected all
four bows from the $350 to $500 price range, in a medium weight
which is pretty much 80 to 81 grams. (My theory -- when in doubt, do
the middle of the road.) Each bow had some sort of tag for ID. I
went through playing with them in various orders, mixed in with my
old bow and attempted to rank them, making notes. Even tried
recording myself doing it -- a sobering experience  My wife, who
plays viola at a far higher level than I play cello, listened to me
play through them and made a ranking which she didn't show me. I
then took them to a lesson, listened to my teacher play them all,
she listened to me play them all and also had me do some trickier
little motions with two of them.
When I gathered all the
info, everyone had selected the same top 2, and the one my teacher
leaned toward was the one I had noted as "arguably better" than the
other top candidate. That was enough reassurance to go ahead and buy
it (naturally, it was the almost $500 one  ).
Of
course in my situation, it was easy. Money, within reason, was not
an issue, and anything I bought was likely to be an improvement on
what I had. My assumption was/is that if I get to be a half decent
player, this would be a backup for a better bow acquired to go with
a better instrument. For my next bow, I'm sure I will want to play
bunches of bows in extended trials. But the next hardware
acquisition will be a better instrument.
The world of musical
instruments is pretty frightening. The grim reality is, $500 is a
cheap bow! My wife was hearing a lot of good things about Berg
composite bows on the viola list, top performance for the money,
etc. Last night she went to their website and found that the viola
bows start around $2200. Many "pro" quality wood bows run $3000 --
$5000. For authentic antique bows, collector-driven pricing adds a
zero on the end of all the numbers above -- it's truly
sobering.
Anyway, I do seem to recall some kind remarks about
one of the Glasser bows. They make a wide assortment of bows using
various synthetic materials for a stick. I think I remember that
they have some sort of carbon fiber beastie in the $200 - $300 range
that is considered a good value. You have to be very careful to
check models and types when discussing Glasser because they have
such an assortment of similar sounding products.
I would
recommend going to the I & E board and doing some searching.
Andrew Victor is very active in investigating all sorts of
"technology" and did an extended review of some of these bows a
while back. Somebody here may remember -- is Andy's evaluation
posted on the ICS site? He plays violin and cello, so he checks out
a lot of hardware.
My impression, more from reading than
experience, is that the composites might get you a little more
playing capability for a given amount of money, especially in the
under $1000 area. Even the composites vary a little from bow to bow,
so I suppose you could get several to try and pick one you like
best.
Good grief -- wrote the first chapter of my book! Hope
it's some help... 
Dave
|
rdsenkowski
Registered User
(3/11/01 11:27:13 am)
Reply |
Re:
Bows? HELP! What should I really be looking for?
Thanks, Dave. I am also new to the
"boards" - they are great! I will try to manuever to the I & E.
Thanks for the tips.
|
Andrew
Victor
Registered
User
(3/12/01 10:27:22 am)
Reply |
Bows?
If you have the patience to wait
until you have your cello, and can then get it into the hands of an
experienced cellist, you could get some idea of how senstive it is
to the bows used on it. Then you perhaps order a range of bows to
test with less uncertainty.
Then, if your new cellist friend
could also test the approval bows for you, you could have some
assurance of the staying power of your choice.
An important
factor with bows is bot to press down against the string so hard
that the instrument growls, and to wipe the rosin off the strings
every time you put the instrument away (more frequently if bad
sounds come out) and not to use much rosin on the bow
hair.
Also if you do get a Glasser Composite or CF bow,
beware that they often come with very slick hair and it can be hard
to get enough rosin on them initially to keep them from slipping on
the strings - but if you persevere - you will succeed - eventually!
(There are speedy shortcuts - that I won't give you unless you come
back needing them.)
Andy
|
rdsenkowski
Registered User
(3/12/01 3:11:30 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Bows?
Hello Andrew! Of course I couldn't
wait to get my cello. Music 123 let me know it would be approx. 3
wks to get my Silent Cello. However, today was very fortuitous. I
had to stay home from work because my son, come to find out, has two
inner ear infections. After medicating sufficiently, I hit the road
and traveled to a music store with a selection ( a bit of a haul).
But what rewards! I walk in the door and there sat my cello. Also an
experienced cellist demonstrated the different bows for me. What's
more, the owner of the store matched the prices I had been qouted on
the internet. So now I am a proud - read extremely proud - owner of
a Yamaha Silent Cello and Coda Conservatory. I also picked up the
Suzuki Cello School books and tape. I couldn't have done it without
everyones guidance. Thank you so much. Short cuts you say??? Oh
please. do tell.
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Brian
Registered User
(3/12/01 5:10:23 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Bows? HELP! What should I really be looking for?
I have both a Coda Conservator Bow
and the Yamaha SVC-200 silent cello. I find the bow to be excellent
(for the price).
I'm still not sold on my Silent Cello
however, which I have have had for about 2 weeks . The problem is
the sound - its a bit too 'electric', and the sustain of each note
goes on forever. I have yet to plug it into a amp, so it might just
be the way it sounds in earphones.
I'm going to get my cello
instructor to try it out this week so I'll let you know what he
thinks.
Hope that helps!
Brian
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phesketh
Registered User
(3/12/01 6:11:02 pm)
Reply |
sound
going on and on on electric instruments
I have a Jensen Electric Cello. It
uses a Barbera Pickup (Series 2000). I noticed originally that the G
string would ring after I finished playing it. But I got a list of
settings for the effects box
(and pre-amp) that I got with my
cello and when I use them they seem to deaden the G string into not
vibrating forever ( the sound is not as lively though). I have tried
a few different Electric cellos and
found that the hanging on of
notes is not uncommon. If the Suzuki has a built in effects box you
should try changing some of the settings. The amp will probably not
make much difference unless you run it through an equalizer first.
All in all I prefer to play my "real" cello ... but the
electric one helps when playing cello is the insomnia cure of choice
and is much lighter to travel with.
Paula
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Matthew
Tifford
Registered
User
(3/14/01 1:12:07 am)
Reply |
Wood,
not carbon fiber
Actually, I've had the opposite
experience. I find that $300-$500 wood bows tend to be better than
their under $500 carbon fiber counterparts. The cheap carbon fiber
bows (as opposed to the over $1000 versions) that I have tried have
always been poorly balanced. On the other hand, some of these South
American bows (I seem to remember a maker named "Chagas"), are
surprisingly good for the price.
| |
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