| Author |
Subject |
Peacefuland
Registered User
(1/21/01 5:14:02 am)
Reply |
position
hi everybody,
i want to ask that
how many positions are in the cello? how do we recognize the place
between different positions?
thanks
|
Tim
Janof
Administrator
(1/22/01 10:33:32 am)
Reply |
Re:
position
You might find some helpful tips on
this topic in the sometimes acidic discussion on "Shifting" on the
Pro Board.
|
Ellen
G 
Registered User
(1/22/01 7:18:40 pm)
Reply |
Re:
position
I didn't read the shifting article
because I don't go to the PPE Board. I did want to mention that
there's some ambiguity in the labeling of "positions" and that some
folks propose not using numbered positions, but rather stating what
finger is on what note. Once your finger finger is placed on a given
note (or any note, for that matter...) the hand has a series of
notes available to it in that position.
A lot of books will
show a series of positions as follows, if you start on an open D
String: If the first finger is on Eb, that would be half position,
and you would have available to you notes through F#. (No extensions
used) If the first finger is on E, it would be called first
position. First finger on F would be lower second; on F# would be
upper second. First finger on G would be lower third; on G# would be
upper third. First finger on A would be fourth position. You can
keep going on up, though I'm not sure if you get into any further
"upper and lower" positions. The problem with this method is
apparent.
Another school of thought is that the placing of
the first finger on each half step constitutes a full step change in
"position." Therefore the above scenario changes, and rather than
half, first, lower second, and so on, you now have first, second,
third and so on.
What I think, personally, is more important
than knowing what the name of the position is, is knowing what notes
you can reach from wherever your hand is located. You can save
yourself a lot of jumping around the fingerboard if you take the
time to know EVERYTHING around you. The other trick is to place the
hand, and not dive for the note.
If you have questions of
this variety often, you may want to check out Phyllis Luckman's
"Handbook for Cello Students." This is one of the many things she
explains. It's a good resource and always at your fingertips so
you're not stuck waiting for someone here to answer your distress
call. E
|
Len
Thompson
Registered User
(1/22/01 10:14:02 pm)
Reply |
Where
am I?
I did read much of the "shifting"
post. They have been very bussy bickering. One point of information
I did read was that there are 44 positions, 32 of which are thumb
positions. Please tell me that it's not 32 positions for thumb on
"each" string. I'm just starting out in thumb, and that sounds
scary! I'm not even sure where positions 5-7 are. Are they 3- finger
pos. above or around the forth pos.? Sorry for my ignorance. I play
a bit in the upper registers, but don't no technically where I am
when I do, Yet!
Len
|
ekifri
Registered User
(1/22/01 10:41:08 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Where am I?
well, you've got the idea. 5th is
the next (higher) after 4th. So, on the a string, 4th position would
be with your 1st finger on the E, 5th would be with your first
finger on the F, or F#, 6th -1st finger on G or G# and so on.
(traditional, non-starker numbering system)
As for the 32
thumb positions, a position is a position, regardless of what string
you are using. (1st is 1st for playing on the C string, the A
string, and any others you happen to have ;-)
Don't be
frightened. The number is correct (or close enough) however, I've
never know anyone who knew or cared what position he was using.
What matters is what Ellen describer, here I am, so what notes
are available to me from here (across all strings) and how do I get
to where I'm going next ;-)
If you play a c major scale up
through the end of your fingerboard- use what ever fingers you wish
(feel free to not use the 4th finger) and just listen to the
pitches-, you will have painlessly traversed all of those positions.
Try it. You should notice that the notes become closer and closer
together the higher you go, and so, using your imagination you have
a lot more notes under your hand and easily reachable in the upper
register than you do down in 1st position.
-eva
|
Ellen
G
Registered User
(1/23/01 12:03:00 am)
Reply |
Re:
Where am I?
You might benefit from Rick Mooney's
Thumb Position Book. It's kind of a fun book, sort of fiddle tunes.
I seem to recall the weak spot (in my opinion) was that you were
always set up and stayed in thumb, and didn't do any moving in and
out of position. Consequently, if Haydn didn't give me enough
measures of rest before moving into thumb when playing quartets, I
was doomed.
While I understand the need to get you
"grounded" in a position -- or a clef, now that I think about it --
and feel comfortable in that new zone, I wish they'd put the new
positions or clefs into more real-life context. It could be just the
books that I've used. Certainly with the volumes out there, there's
probably one that's juuuuust right for me.
|
Len
Thompson
Registered User
(1/23/01 4:11:25 pm)
Reply |
Simple
Minded
Thanks folks, I understand what your
saying, and that's pretty much what I've been doing. But this 44
pos.thing still throws me. I have my fingerboard chart in hand, and
I'm not sure I can count 44 notes, never mind positions! So to say
there are 32 thumb pos. seems to indicate that they are used
differently than how 1st pos.is used. If I have this right, from the
1st pos. on the A string you can play 6 notes. Does this same basic
structure apply to the thumb positions. If so, how would you fit 32
of them? Sorry to belabor this, but I'm perplexed!!
|
Paul
Tseng ICS Staff 
Administrator
(1/23/01 4:53:28 pm)
Reply
 |
Re:
Simple Minded
I don't think I've ever heard anyone
ever say, "play that on 12th postion on the D string."
Why
invest any effort in memorizing the name of the position? Once you
are in that position, you have to know what notes are in the
vicinity. You also have to know the distance (interval) of the next
position you shift to.
I can't really see any point in
figuring out how many positions there are. If your thumb is playing
on the D and A strings an octave above the open strings, then you go
a whole step up and play and E major scale, who really cares what
"number" that position is named as long you know where all the notes
are relative to each other and those in the previous
position?
Paul Tseng
My Website
MP3!
|
Ellen
G
Registered User
(1/23/01 6:04:26 pm)
Reply |
The
point is...
Sorry to intervene where I don't
belong, but Paul, while I see what you are saying, I ALSO see that
Len has something about cello he doesn't understand. If he can't get
the answer here, where the heck is he going to get it? It may not
have an application in everyday life -- regard it as Trivial Pursuit
if nothing else -- but there has to be an answer. It would be
helpful if someone could provide it.
Off to fund raiser
meetings. I love music, I hate fund raisers.
|
ekifri
Registered User
(1/23/01 6:45:45 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Simple Minded
Ok, I believe (correct me if I;m
wrong, since I've never counted) that the 32 thumb positions refers
to half-tones (starker's system of numbering positions).
So, if
the first thumb position is with the thumb on the octave (a on your
a string and so on) then the second thumb position is when the thumb
is positioned on A#/Bb and so on down to the end of hte fingerboard
and beyond. I also think that the 32 is more of a theoretical number
based on the last playable note of some particularly good cello.
I've known a lot of student instruments that become unplayable long
before you get there ;-)
Hope this was helpful.
-eav
|
Paul
Tseng ICS Staff
Administrator
(1/23/01 6:59:09 pm)
Reply
|
Re: The
point is...
Ellen,
Len has a perfectly
valid question and I don't mean to trivialize it in any regard. It's
perfectly fine if you really want to know how many positions there
are and how you'd count them (if you are into this kind of thing, to
each their own).
I'm merely offering a practical perspective
from a performer's point of view. Don't get bogged down with this
issue (if you are) of the position numbers. There's a much bigger
picture to be seen here.
I never said "Len, don't look for
the answer here, did I?"
I have only the best intentions,
Ellen (and Len) I sure hope that comes accross. 
Paul Tseng
My Website
MP3!
|
Len
Thompson
Registered User
(1/23/01 7:55:40 pm)
Reply |
Sorry!
Whadya think I was kiddin when I
said simple minded? Accually, explaining about half tones, and
beyond the end of the fingerboard shines some light! I don't ever
expect to apply this type of system in place of the more common (and
easier) shift to the note type. I was just curious after reading the
big boy board. Don't worry, no offence has been taken, nor did I
think that was anybody's intent. I think it started with my
wondering how anyone could drop from thin air onto position 31,any
easier than they could with any particular note. So I thought if
anyone subscribes to this method, they could give me the answer.
Obviously, most folks don't. Sorry, sorry, sorry!!!
Len
|
Paul
Tseng ICS Staff
Administrator
(1/23/01 9:03:22 pm)
Reply
|
Re:
Sorry!
Aw, Len.
Please don't
apologize. My answers were not in any tone of annoyance at all. It's
good to question and be curious.
I had to nail a high B in
the Prokofiev Symphony-Concerto's recap of the 1st movement in my
performance. Checking for the note is fine, but it's so much more
effective when you just drop both hands down and nail the B 2
octaves above the 1st finger on the Astring (1st position). BTW, I'm
happy to say that in my concert, I did nail it (go me! sorry, most
immodest of me!) but I have NO idea what position it was. I'll also
add that the knowledged of what position that note was in would not
have helped me one bit either.
Here's a funny lil story
(which some have heard before, so forgive me please) I was playing
the 1st movement of the Prokofiev Symphony-Concerto for Virizlay
(principal cellist of the Balitmore Symphony) and his repertoire
class.
In trying to nail that high note (checking one measure
ahead frantically by plucking away while the accompaniment marched
on) I hit the note! But it was really out of tune! I tried
despearately to get to the B with a terrible sounding vibrato and
finally got there. Virizlay stopped us and turned to the class and
asked around as if in a survey "does anyone want to guess what note
Paul was playing?"
He went around the room and they
answered:
"Bb",
"A",
"B",
"C,"
and he said to
them all "correct!"
I've learned time and again (the hard way), don't try to
check the note before you play (especially if it up there in 27.5
position or something). Just hear the note, and drop your left hand.
You have a much better chance. Of course, you'll want to practice
this process a lot. DISCLAIMER: Not everyone agrees with this
method, but Rostropovich teaches this in his master classes.
Paul Tseng
My Website
MP3!
Edited by: Paul
Tseng ICS Staff at:
1/23/01 9:03:22 pm
|
Len
Thompson
Registered User
(1/23/01 9:56:07 pm)
Reply |
Merrily
We Roll Along
I applied the logic that, "the only
stupid question is the one that is never asked" type of thing. If
you could see my face, you would see that I'm smiling. Carry
on!!
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