Paul Tseng

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Stefan,

I'm not sure that arching the knuckles is a good idea. What are the advantages?

The advantages with level knuckles are:

1. You don't have to stretch as much in normal positions. You won't be changing the shape of your hands and thus won't have to re-orient your spacing everytime you use a different finger or shift to a different position. If you watch Slava or Yo Yo's left hand, the level knuckles are constant in all areas of the fingerboard (all positions). It helps you direct the weight of your entire left arm more directly into the string. You therefore don't need to squeeze the string down, you simply let the weight of your arm hold the note down as it is balanced into your fingers where they contact the string. The over all effect is that your left hand is much more relaxed. (The benefits of a relaxed left hand could fill another post!)

2. You'll be able to reach much further than a P4 from your thumb with your 3rd finger (6ths and octave reaches in certain positions with thumb and 3 are much easier)

3. Using your 4th finger in thumb position is much more possible.

4. With knuckles low and level, there is a much better sense of balance because your entire hand is lower and closer to the fingerboard. The higher up your knuckles are the more they have to use strength to just stay balanced. Think of this. Which is more secure, to stand on one foot or to sit on the floor?

I found that playing runs up and down the a string in thumb position much easier with the level knuckles in the left hand.


So...what are the advantages to arching the knuckles? I'm really interested in hearing this and possibly learning something that I've overlooked.

Actually, until I began studying with Panteleyev and Feigelson, I used arched knuckles myself. Not that I was taught to do that. Until then, I'd never been told otherwise. Many of my left hand and intonation problems were solved with these left hand principles.

This picture exaggerates it a bit but the general shape is good.

Paul Tseng

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Edited by: Paul Tseng ICS Staff  at: 1/3/01 1:54:16 pm

Paul Tseng

My Website
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Edited by: Paul Tseng ICS Staff  at: 1/3/01 2:57:44 pm

Marshall C. St. John
drcello@vei.net
http://www.celloheaven.com

First of all, I should clarify that I have unknowingly been a flat-knuckler for years. It is only recently that somebody pointed this out to me. If only I could claim that I was imitating Rostropovich and Yo-Yo! I have been experimenting with curved knuckles ever since and I must say I like the results so far.

Secondly, I will not presume to discount your experience or the experience of the entire nation of Russia. If it works for you and others, great!

I do question one statement you made:

"The level knuckles are actually more architectually sound than and balanced than the arched ones (maybe not for buildings, but for human hands on the cello.)"

I have a hard time buying this. The musculature is not at its strongest when it is extended. Just push on the edge of a table top with flat knuckles and watch your knuckles hyper-extend. The energy goes into bending the knuckles backwards instead of into the tabletop. This is much less powerful than pushing on the tabletop with curved fingers and knuckles.

I also question whether the hand is more balanced. Just because you are crouched to the ground doesn't mean you are more balanced. It just means you have less distance to fall. I think of balance as meaning that your body is in more of a "power stance." Having flat knuckles does not represent this, at least as I'm envisioning it.

There do seem to be some advantages to flat knuckles. So the question is whether these advantages warrant using flat knuckles ALL the time or just in certain circumstances. I also wonder if flat knuckles work better when playing with a long end-pin. When the cello is more vertical (i.e. short endpin), the fingers/knuckles may need to be more curved just to reach the darn string.

Edited by: Tim Janof at: 1/3/01 9:15:09 pm

Tim,

>I have a hard time buying this. The musculature is not at
>its strongest when it is extended. Just push on the edge
>of a table top with flat knuckles and watch your knuckles
>hyper-extend. The energy goes into bending the knuckles
>backwards instead of into the tabletop.

I don't think my knuckles are hyperextended when I play with level knuckles. Of course, I don't force them into this position.

It really is not a matter of using energy into beinding the knuckles backwards as much as it is letting them go down. It takes a lot of wasted engergy to prevent them from going level actually.

>This is much less
>powerful that pushing on the tabletop with curve fingers
>and knuckles.

Here is where your the main problem lies. By principle the level knuckle position does NOT rely on powerful pushing. If you think of holding the strings down as a matter of pushing then you completely miss the point of this hand position. You don't need to use strength or muscle power (tension) with this position. Tryin to do so in the arched OR the level hand position can result in tension and poor intonation and finally, pain and injury.

I would not recomend using the level knuckle position if one's idea of left hand use is centered around pushing, squeezing or strength instead of balance and weight. For that matter, I wouldn't recommend pushing or using power from the fingers to hold the string down at all. Actually, flattening out the knuckles will prevent you from pushing. That's why you feel it's weak. But you hold the string down from the arm weight, not finger strength.

It's like walking. Do you use force and muscle strength to push your foot DOWN into the ground when you walk? I hope not, because you would have some serious back, hip and knee injuries really quickly. And you certainly wouldn't be able to out run even the slowest person who is jogging in a natural relaxed manner.

I think I primarily disagree with your principal of musculature and powerful pushing (as I did until I was thrity years old). Even if you DO used curved knuckles, you should still rely on the weight of your entire arm to hold the strings down.

You make a good point about this position working better with the bent endpin. In general, the more 'horizontal' angle of the cello lends itself to the use of gravity and relaxed arms instead of tension and muscling around the instrument.

One last thing I thought of. If you arch your knuckles up, then you instantly reduce your reach and the space between all your fingers. Tyr this. Let your knuckles flatten out on at table or your right arm or the cello itself. Now pretend you are going to play in 1st position on the A string a B (1st finger) and a D# (4th Finger) our classic "open position." Pretty comfy so far. Now start to arch your knuckles up and try to keep your fingers over the same two notes. Tell me, what happens?

Now do the same thing and play ||: B- C#- D#-C#- B : || Compare the results of letting your knuckles go to a level position to forcing them to stay arched.

Now try playing a 1st position double stop G# ( 4th finger on the d string) and B (1st finger on the A string). Tyr playing it first in the arched knuckles position and compare it to the level knuckles position.

Now try all of the above without using your left thumb at all.

The flat knuckle method is really much more relaxed (if you are using proper balance and not muscular force) than the arched. It's more relaxed because you automatically have a bigger reach when your knuckles are relaxed and flat.

These knuckles are like your knees. I'd rather sit and let my knees bend than stand and force them to hold my body weight up if I had to stay relaxed. The further you knuckles are from the fingerboard (higher up or further out) the more you'll most likely be squeezing.

Finally, if you are using proper balance and not squeezing and playing consistently in tune. They nobody really cares what your knuckles look like anyway, right? The way they look should be the result of a relaxed and balanced technique. It's entirely possible to use flat knuckles and still squeeze (missing the whole ppoint of this position and not benefitting from all its advantages)

However, I don't think that it's a coincidence that Yo Yo Ma, Rostropovich, Starker, Feigislon and other cellists who use the level knuckle position happen to have very good intonation.

PS. I should add, that though I began learning about this about 5 years ago, it's only been recently that I actually began to apply it and and really understand it. If you see pictures of me playing throughout my 3-4 years of study in the "Russian School" you might find that my knuckles were not all that level. I'm rerally making an effort now to making this more instinctive these days and I like the results. I know I need to improve my intonation; this has really been helping me a great deal recently.

This has been a good discussion!

Paul Tseng

My Website
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Edited by: Paul Tseng ICS Staff  at: 1/3/01 5:14:02 pm

>Having said this, the arched hand is still more
>structurally sound than a flat hand.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point then... whatever structurally sound means anyway. The hand is not a structure like a building which is static and has to withstand external forces and vectors. Rather, the hand is dynamic and requires the most relaxed and efficient means of moving. (Aside from physical harmonics and vibrations, buiildings don't move and shift their center of gravity). You still should try those experiments I mentioned in my previous post.

>If you relax your
>weight into your fingertips on a table top with flat
>knuckles, the weight tends to hyper-extend your knuckles
>instead of directing the weight into the tabletop through
>your fingertips.

I think it's better to illustrate this on a cello than a table top. The cello allows you to hang onto it while the table top is simply a plane where your range balance and angle are very limited. In any case, what you call hyper-extended may be tense for you, but if done properly, you will find it very relaxed. I believe you are incorrect to say that the arched knuckles direct the weight more directly into the strings. Actually, the opposite is true. With the level knuckles, your center of gravity is lower. If you arch your knuckly upwards, then the point where the line from your elbow to the first break-point is that arched knuckle. YOur weight goes into that arched knuckle, NOT your fingertip.

Try this: put your first finger on the table top. Start with your knuckle arched. Can you feel the muscles required to hold your knuckle up like that? Now relax and let that 1st knuckle nautrally down. Where is the wieght now? Feel how that muscle in your palm is no longer tense? See how secure your entire hand is now that it has a lower center of gravity? Also without expending your muscle energy to suspend your knuckle up like that, you'll be more relaxed. The weight of your arm is being used to hold the string down and nothing (meaning the muscles in your hand that a responsible for suspending your knuckle up in the arched position) is interfering with the transferrence of arm weight into the finger playing on the string.


>With arched fingers/knuckles, the weight
>is transmitted through the fingertips to the tabletop.

As I said, with arched fingers/knuckles, the weight is transmitted to the poor fingers/knuckles which eventually will buckle to stop standing in the way if they are being forced to stand up.

So I think the difference we have is...You think I'm forcing my knuckles to stay down unnnaturally (what you call hyper-extending) while I claim that they are more relaxed that way and I'm merely letting them go to where they want to go.

Let's experiment more and compare notes.

Thanks!

Paul Tseng

My Website
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Edited by: Tim Janof at: 1/3/01 9:23:05 pm

Paul Tseng

My Website
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Paul Tseng

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Dennis,

You know, the example you cited is exactly where Channing Robbins taught me to flatten the knuckle to reach from the F natural with the first finger in 4th position.

There was a passage in the 1st movement of the Lalo concerto, there was an F played with the 1st finger in 4th position on the A string and a reach to a Bb. The goal was not to shift or slide but to reach for the Bb.

I used to think of it a squashing my knuckles down. But recently I realized that I've gained enough flexibility such that it's letting the knuckles go down.

I think about a gymnast doing a split. (OUCH!) For the untrained person in gymnastics, it will definitely feel difficult and even unnatural. But does that make it a bad practice, one to avoid? No, instead a determined gymnast will learn to let his muscles relax such that it is a very easy and relaxed position to be in.

Sheesh, that makes playing the cello sound easy by comparison, doesn't it?

Paul Tseng

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