| Author |
Subject |
ruthann
Registered User
(2/6/01 10:04:10 am)
Reply |
And
speaking of $30 videos from Shar...
I bought the "Exploring the Bow Arm"
set with Orlando Cole and Lynn Harrell. I watched the first one
yesterday. I picked up some interesting bow tips from it - always
welcome. I was quite interested to hear, when each "introduced" his
cello (but not the bow!) that Orlando Cole has the "Sleeping Beauty"
that used to belong to Piatigorsky. You don't get to hear it much on
the video, he only plays a few strokes here and there. The video
ends with Harrell playing the prelude to the 3rd Bach Suite. Really
grand. And the camera focus pretty much stayed on the bow
arm.
I don't know when I'll get around to watching the second
video. I'll post again when I do.
One item about bow hold
that was discussed - both men have the 3rd finger of the right hand
touching the silver ring the hair goes into. No doubt there's a name
for that part, I just don't know it. Then Lynn Harrell sort of curls
his second finger around between the stick and the hair. If I were
to set my hand that far forward I would have to do that too. I
typically have the second finger touching that part.
So
here's a new cello poll: What finger of yours sits on the silver
ring? And do you curl your second finger between the stick and
hair?
I'm going to try this bow hold for a few days. Maybe
I'll start playing like Lynn Harrell! And my cello will turn into a
Strad!
cello_suttonr@hotmail.com
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karenlee
Registered
User
(2/6/01 12:52:29 pm)
Reply |
Re: And
speaking of $30 videos from Shar...
Yeah those $30 videos...I just got
that video too! My question to you is, can you hold the bow level
using just thumb and 1 & 2 and turn it parallel to the floor
like they do? I can't. I guess I need a personal thumb trainer or
something.
|
ruthann
Registered User
(2/6/01 3:10:16 pm)
Reply |
Re: And
speaking of $30 videos from Shar...
Do you mean perpendicular to the
floor? Sort of, but not all the way up, and not with the kind of
control they were demonstrating.
cello_suttonr@hotmail.com
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Laura
Wichers
Moderator
(2/6/01 4:35:50 pm)
Reply |
Re: And
speaking of $30 videos from Shar...
I would assume part of the reason
for Harrell's bow hold is the size of his hands. That silver part is
called the ferrule (sp???).
Laura
|
karenlee
Registered
User
(2/6/01 5:13:25 pm)
Reply |
Re: And
speaking of $30 videos from Shar...
no, parallel.
|
Ryan
Selberg .gif)
Registered User
(2/6/01 5:32:16 pm)
Reply |
Re: And
speaking of $30 videos from Shar...
Although I haven't seen the videos,
I will comment on my understanding of the bow hold/grip. First of
all, I am in the very small minority of cellists who play with the
pinky finger on the top of the bow, rather than on the side with the
rest of the fingers. (I personally feel I have much more natural
control of the little finger's muscular activity, the way a
keyboardist-computer or pianist-does.)
I have always
believed that it is the first and fourth fingers that primarily
control the bow. The first finger provides the leverage for sound in
the upper half, or articulated strokes in the lower half. It is the
little finger that provides counterbalance to release the weight of
the bow (for all of you who still know what a record player is,
picture the activity of the little finger as the mechanism that
lifts the tone arm off the record upon its conclusion, so it can
return at rest without scratching across the surface of the record.
The middle two fingers are primarily for stability, keeping
the bow from rolling around in the fingers. With their extending
down across the frog, they make it feel like one is holding a flat
board rather than a round stick. (In addition to playing with my
pinky on top of the stick, I place my second finger across the
ferrule.)
Just for fun, try holding the bow in front of you,
parallel with the floor, using just the thumb, second and third
fingers. I think you will find that there is incredible tension from
the immoveable wrist all the way up to the shoulder. Now try the
same thing without the second and third fingers-just thumb, first
and fourth. This should result in a very relaxed and flexible hold,
which allows leverage to be applied to either end of the bow without
excessive tension.
Just my $.02.
Ryan
|
Eric
Registered User
(2/6/01 5:37:25 pm)
Reply |
Quite a
realization
Last Wednesday I was having a
particularily bad practice session...my bow arm was so stiff and
rigid. My teacher had been telling me about this problem, and was
waiting for me to make a breakthrough in that area. I had a feeling
it had to do with my bow hold. What a realize now is that I held the
bow too far out(hand too far the the outer part of the frog), with
the 2nd finger on the silver piece, but only barely touching it(and
on the outer end, not the inner). With that bow hold, my pinky was
usually touching the outer edge of the frog. That was how my first
cello teacher taught it to me.
Whenever I practiced my hand
'wanted' to go more to the inside, but I kept fighting it. I got so
sick of it, but I thought it was 'right' and that I would get used
to it. I looked through the ICS photo archive recently and saw that
most of the players on photos held their bows very generously on the
inside! So I tried that, and eureka! What a difference! Now I play
with my second finger barely touching the silver piece but now on
the inside. Sometimes when I play with a little more gusto than
usual now I sometimes lose contact with my second finger, but I
don't really go so far as to put my third finger there.
Maybe the 'correct' place to put the fingers is where your
hand naturally wants to place itself. Of course, that is entirely
IMHO because I am merely a 16 mo. and counting adult CBN...
Eric
|
Patricia2
Registered User
(2/6/01 6:38:10 pm)
Reply |
archive
photos?
Eric,
Can you say where you found
those photos?
was it the archives where it shows pages
1-20?
Your post intrigued me, because I am not comfortable with
my own bow hold and just thought maybe I, too, could pick up some
idease.
But when I clicked on a photo -- I presume the photo then
blows up for easier viewing -- my whole screen just started
flashing!
So I high-tailed it out of there.
Maybe there's a
way to do it....
(Maybe I'll just get the video.)
|
sarah
schenkman
Registered User
(2/6/01 6:41:25 pm)
Reply |
Pinky
on top
That's where my pinky is too - feels
like there's better control that way.
|
Eric
Registered User
(2/6/01 8:36:59 pm)
Reply |
Pictures
Hi Patricia,
I took the
pictures I found particularily informative and put them on a web
page for you. (hopefully I'm not pissing off any ICS people! Here's the
link:
aurora.physics.umanitoba....index.html
Eric
|
Sorefingers
Registered User
(2/7/01 7:51:13 am)
Reply |
Re:
Pictures
Thanks Eric - good demo
|
MsCheryl
Registered User
(2/7/01 8:46:21 am)
Reply |
thumb,
1st and 4th
I remember lessons where I had to
remove my 2nd and 3rd fingers from the bow in order to get that
"triangle" working. And yes, I do have a straight bow (as do many of
my colleagues who were trained the same way:-) )
|
MsCheryl
Registered User
(2/7/01 8:52:44 am)
Reply |
size of
hands
Actually, my hands are rather small
for cello and my ring finger goes on that silver "ring", too. My
pinky finger goes on the dot on the frog (that, also, probably has
some kind of tech name which eludes me at the moment) and 1st and
2nd fingers lightly rest curved on the stick at the wrapping. Thumb
is curved on the other side opposited the 2nd finger. I believe this
is the standard "Cole" bow grip and people of all sizes, that I
know, use it.
|
MsCheryl
Registered User
(2/7/01 8:54:37 am)
Reply |
to
Sarah
While I am here - a quick note - it
was Florence Nelson who came to our meeting - our committee received
a very nice letter from her. The first newsletter is done and
out!!!
|
Dick500
Registered User
(2/7/01 9:49:03 am)
Reply |
Re: Bow
grip
I've noticed over the years that
people put their fingers in particular places on the bow either
because that's where they go and work best or because that is what
they have been told to do by other people steeped in tradition. If
you follow the traditional "here's what your hand is supposed to
look like" information blindly, it is quite possible that things
will be going wrong but still look more or less right--particularly
when it comes to substituting active muscle movements for passive
changes of shape (e.g. bow changes, etc.).
When I first
started out, I held the bow with a traditional 1st finger hooked
around the stick, 4th finger on the pearl eye, and 2nd & 3rd
fingers falling where they may approach. It worked, I guess. My
understanding was that the control was provided by the thumb, 1st
finger, 4th finger tripod and 2 & 3 were along for the
ride.
Then I had the golden opportunity to study for a couple
of years with Orlando Cole who, as I recall, taught me about the
virtues of strength which doesn't require the use all of one's
muscular abilities. To this end, he showed me the advanvantages of
doubling up the 1st and 4th fingers in the tripod grip. This was
accomplished by hooking the 2hd finger around the stick as well.
Cool. I was sold.
Then I had the opportunity to learn about
the bow grip in the tradition coming through Leonard Rose's students
(I studied with Owen Carman who now runs Meadowmount). Now I learned
about the dual nature of the bow grip. The thumb, 1st finger, and
4th finger do indeed provide a tripod. Also, the thumb, 2nd finger,
and 3rd finger provide a central pivot which allow the bow to be
pulled up bow as well as down bow. All need to be flexible enough to
allow for changes of shape as needed. I had been playing with a
rather high hand (i.e. palm rather far away from the stick) but
discovered that, as I dropped my palm closer to the stick and
transfered most of the angle which the knuckles at the base of each
finger had been providing to the other knuckles in my fingers, I had
attained flexibility for the center pivot, gotten more flexibility
in the tripod for when it was needed, and gotten rid of most all the
scratches in my tone. Dude!
So what does my hand look like?
Well, everything is curved (except for my wrist which is nice and
flat), my 2nd finger hooks around the stick, the 4th finger rests on
the pearl eye, the hair is parallel to the floor when the bow is
parallel also, and my hand is as big as a canned ham. Works for
me.
Now, why isn't my 1st finger hooked around the stick
also? Well, about the time that I was changing my grip the final
time, I cut my 1st finger base knuckle wide open on a piece of
glass, got 4 stitches to hold it closed, couldn't play for a few
weeks, and couldn't make a fist for a year much less hook it around
the stick. While I discovered that it worked well for me, I don't
recommend having an altercation with a window while putting in an
air conditioner as a way of restructuring one's bow grip for
everybody.
Dick Mattson
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Paul
Tseng ICS Staff 
Administrator
(2/7/01 12:13:56 pm)
Reply
 |
Re:
Pictures
Nice
compilation!
<sneaking in> Two Words:
Flat
Knuckles!
(hehehehe)
<sneaking out>
Paul Tseng
My Website
MP3!
|
Patricia2
Registered User
(2/7/01 4:48:15 pm)
Reply |
Help!
double-jointed thumb?
Anyone else have this?
The first
joint (tip) of my right thumb tilts "backward" at a 45%+ angle,
unless I consciously try to keep it
straight or curved in (for
that "C" hand shape).
I understand this weakens the line of
strength from back down arm to bow....
Anything in particular to
be done with this?
Should I try to keep it from bending
backward?
Surely this can't be all that
rare!
Thanks
|
Paul
Tseng ICS Staff
Administrator
(2/7/01 5:40:40 pm)
Reply
|
Re:
Help! double-jointed thumb?
The answer is 42!
Sorry, Pat!
I don't know how people with this kind of thumb (whose name is
intimated in the opening line of this reply) deal with
this.
But ideally, you won't be squeezing the thumb or the
right hand too much. You must find a good grip based on balance
rather than strength.
Paul Tseng
My Website
MP3!
|
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