| Author |
Subject |
Len
Thompson
Registered User
(8/5/00 5:47:30 pm)
Reply |
How
much can worn bow hair effect sound?
Hello everyone!
I'm just hoping
someone can help with my bow problem.
I purchased a new bow back
in April and the screw was
hard to use from the get-go. I thought
maybe it had a
bad thread or something, but it turns out to be
hair that is stretched out causing the screw to be bottoming out in
the slot. So I'm wondering if the sound and playability will improve
when I get it rehaired. I'm sure I can get a poor sound all by
myself without equipment in poor shape, but I have to be very
deliberate to get a nice sound. If I speed things up at all, the
sound quality gets poor.
Also, how much does good rosin effect
the playability of the bow, compared with run of the mill type
rosins.
Thanks for any input. Len
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matthias24
Registered
User
(8/5/00 10:20:33 pm)
Reply |
Re: How
much can worn bow hair effect sound?
of course, I am not the difinitive
source (I promise I didnt mean to make that rhyme!  ), having
only played cello for 9 months now, but from what other people have
said on this board, Rosin will sometimes effect how you play in
different climates. for example, one rosin might work wonderfully
while you play up north where it is cold, but might not work well at
all if you play on a beach in Mexico. it just depends. I have no
clue about different types of rosin, other than i think i heard that
dark rosin is stickier. I'm sure Todd, and several other people on
this board, can tell you MUCH more about it than I. I'm very curious
too. you might check out the Technique section of the ICS library.
they might have some articles about rosin.
~ aaron ~
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TerryM
Registered
User
(8/6/00 3:49:30 pm)
Reply |
Re: How
much can worn bow hair effect sound?
A properly tensioned bow is
essential for proper playing and getting your bow fixed or replaced
will help your playing immensely.
Was your bow a new or used
one when you purchased it? The hair should not be stretched out
after such a short period of time. It sounds to me like it was not
properly haired in the first place or the stick has lost its camber
(bend). If you loosen the bow so that there is no tension in the
hair and set it on a clean, flat surface, the wood at the center of
the bow should touch the hair and the flat surface. If the wood at
the center of the bow sits above the surface, then the bow probably
does not have enough camber and may need to be re-cambered. Bows can
lose their camber if the tension is not taken off when the bow is
not in use. This is especially true with less expensive wooden bows
that are made of less resilient Brazil wood. It should not be
problem with composite bows, but it is still a good idea to release
the tension when not in use. If I were you I would take it back to
where you bought it and complain about it. No bow should be in that
condition in this short a period of time.
If your bow screw
is tight, try cleaning the thread and then rubbing it across a
candle. The wax will smooth out the sticky action, without harm to
the mechanism. You need to disassemble the frog and screw
periodically and clean the metal slide and screw to time to preserve
a smooth action on the bow screw.
There have been many
previous threads on this board about the merits of various kinds of
rosins. Take a look back and give them a read.
Good
luck,
Terry
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Andrew
Victor
Registered
User
(8/6/00 4:15:23 pm)
Reply |
Re: How
much can worn bow hair effect sound?
For best playability, you do not
want the hair to be too tight. But how tight is too tight? That will
depend on the bow, on the amount of hair, and the instrument itself,
and even the particular music being played.
Hair can "stretch
out" due to summer humidity. That would be a temporary condition,
but one that the rehairing technician should have allowed for.
However, if you had the job done elsewhere than where you live, the
problem might not have been taken into account adequately. And then
too, some bows might not have enough leeway in their mechanisms to
go all the way from 5% RH in a dry heated room in winter (or strong
air conditioning) to 100% RH of a saturated pre-thunderstorm
afternoon.
The playability of any bow is strongly influenced
by the amount of rosin accumulated on the strings. You should start
every session with clean strings. If rosin accumulates rapidly and
regularly, then you are using too much rosin on the
bow.
Should you use a soft or hard rosin? I am finding that
it can depend on the bow and the cello - and of course the weather
you have in a particular season - so I keep one of each in my
"traveling" cello case.
I have found that the quality of
sound will improve if I have a bow rehaired and the job done is good
in terms of the quality of hair, the amount of hair, and the general
workmanship. I have also, over many (many) years of such things,
occasionally (actually more times than I would like) had a bow come
back not playing as well as when it went in. I think this is a
function of who does the job more than anything
else.
Andy
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Len
Thompson
Registered User
(8/8/00 3:33:40 pm)
Reply |
Re: How
much can worn bow hair effect sound?
Thanks so much for the replies. Just
to let you all know, the bow was purchased brand new from Shar for
$435.00.
It is a W.Seifert. I chose it from a group of four bows
they sent as a trial. I found they all had pretty much the same
overall qualities, so I chose the one that I like best.
It had
the best looking stick (round)and was made with a bit more careful
craftsmanship I thought. The stick has plenty of camber to it, and
when the hair is loose it touches the stick. I unfortunatly
dismissed the hard working screw for a bad thread, which I thought I
could remedy easily. I was getting a poor sound from it most of the
time and thought it was a rosin problem, so I finaly broke down and
very carfully cleaned it. It was then that I realized the hair
couldn't be tensioned any more because there was no more room in the
slot(this was before I cleaned it). I don't think I will try to
return it because of the length of time I've had it .I don't want to
get in to a battle over it.I'm not sure if I would want to honor a
product 4 or 5 months after the sale, seeing how all hair can wear
and stretch anyway, or maybe I'm just a wimp!
Anyway, its good to
know I can expect things to improve with a rehair. Incidently, I
keep my bow tension to about to diameter of a pencil at the closest
point to the stick. Is this enough? I might add that some of the
recent threads about bow grip have helped to improve my sound also.
This is really such a great place to chat and get useful info.I
really appreciate it. Thanks again for the replies.
Oh ya, to one
of my original questions, will a $20. cake of rosin work better than
a $2. cake, all other things being equil(dark or light
etc.).
Len
|
Andrew
Victor
Registered
User
(8/9/00 9:21:38 am)
Reply |
Re: How
much can worn bow hair effect sound?
Len,
I think you have raised
some good questions. I also looked for the perfect guideline for
hair tightness (i.e., how far from the stick). I have finally
concluded that it depends on the bow - on the instrument -- and on
what music you are playing. For some really good bows (maybe less
good ones too) there may be some tightness that works out clearly to
be the best. Another factor is how much hair is on the bow - for I
have no doubt at all that the actual tension in each hair also plays
an important role in the sound created, since it is directly related
to the amount of actual contact with the strings. (Is all that
clear?) A good bow, tensioned and rosined just right, will actually
have a remarkable sound (compared to ordinary) when optimally
tensioned - also some things will just play easier and better. (A W.
Seifert, may or may not be good enough for all of this --I do know
that as violin bows, the few I've experienced have had limitations
(especially for spicatto, and easy brush strokes were a battle)
-although my W. Seifert viola bow has good potential for all of
this.)
I have also experienced magnificent violin bows that were
played by their owners with too much tension, and thus did not have
good sound and were not easy to use for off-string bowings either.
Some of the best bows I have used had a rather remarkable
interaction between the flexibility of the stick and of the hair -
when tensioned just so.
I have never had $20 rosin, although
I did buy a cake of imported "gold" rosin for $12.50 about 20 years
ago with a more than $15 list price, at that time.
I have
settled on the three Millant-Deroux rosins I have found. They are
cloth mounted and come in clear plastic cases with different colored
tops: the standard with a red top, the "Gold & Silver" with a
yellow top, and the Jade with a green (jade) top. The last is a soft
rosin. For about $20 (discount prices), I have all grades of
hardness, and can mix "and match."
There are other fine
rosins, Hill, Bernardel, many of the Pirastro rosins.
Rosin
is a natural product, and other than degree of hardness, and added
impurties, the differences may be moot.
I think many are the
same rosin packaged differently to sell suckers like me as many
cakes as our cases (and cupboards) will hold (I have lots of both).
Personally I shy away from some of the "goldflex" rosins because I
was finally able to trace eye irritation to using those rosins (on
violin). But on cello, the risk of eye irritation may be reduced,
unless you rub your eyes a lot. The Pirastro, Goldflex rosin, for
example, seems to grip well, if not overused.
Belmor rosin
comes in a larger cake than most and thus is probably more cost
effective for some uses -- although it seems harder to find this
brand these days. On the old Maestronet Fingerboard internet
bulletin board, some very experienced luthiers recommended this
brand (I still have one used cake around from many decades ago). I
noticed that the well-known ex-San Francisco luthier, Frank Passa,
uses it on newly rehaired bows. But, since these folk often don't
play, it can't be unequivocally recommended on that basis.
I
haven't found the "rosin effect" to be large, but I do have
satisfactory solutions for myself. I am using the Millant-Deroux
(red top) in each of my shoulder-instrument cases. And I have Gold
& Silver and Jade in my main cello case. (The rosins in the
other cello cases don't matter, because when I play them I use the
bows from my main case anyway.) All-in all, I think I have less
false sounds and less string and instrument cleanup with these
rosins, although I always clean strings after playing, and apply
rosin rather rarely, perhaps once for every 4 or 5 hours of playing.
When I do apply it, I use only a few swipes (2 or
3).
Andy
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