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AGabbert
Registered User
Posts: 20
(8/13/01 3:32:51 pm)
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Student Bow
recommendations
I have a student looking for a first bow to purchase.
I'm
guessing they'd be looking at the $500 and under range.
Does
anyone have any advice or recommendations of bows I should suggest
she try?
Are there any pitfalls she should be on the lookout
for?
(merchants, certain companies, materials,
etc.)
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Todd
French 
Moderator
Posts: 232
(8/13/01 3:47:35 pm)
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Re: Student Bow
recommendations
You should hope to hear from Andrew Victor on this subject as he
seems to really have a handle (no pun intended) on the bow subject -
pros, cons, and reviews.
My opinion - I think you can get a
really fine student bow for far less than $500. Many quality
workshop pernambuco bows can be purchased now for $250 - $300 from
various reputable companies. These sticks are often of quite
tremendous quality for the price, and often the same stick as you
would find on a pricier bow - the pricier bow simply fitted with
more expensive metal mountings (silver instead of nickel, etc.). If
you need just a very basic, high quality student bow, you can even
check some of the higher grade brazilwood bows available, and they
can be purchased for even less than the aforementioned pernambuco
bows.
(I guess I'm just assuming this is for a beginner-range
student as you mention it will be their first bow)
If you are
looking for a very high end bow for less than $1,000, you should
strongly consider the many options in composite bows - CodaBow,
Glasser, etc.
As far as pitfalls, I'd make sure you are
working with a company or shop that has excellent knowledge of the
playing characteristics of the bows they offer, and a no-nonsense
guarantee to protect you (or your student) in case something goes
wrong. Always go with a business that stands behind what they sell
you - that way you are assured what you are buying is of the highest
quality because it will have to be in order for them to stay in
business!!
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drcello
Registered User
Posts: 560
(8/13/01 6:27:35 pm)
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| Edit
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I'll put in a
link...
Todd's too nice to do it, but I'll put in a plug for
StringWorks
http://www.stringworks.com/
and
for Cellos2Go with Ellen Gunst, too.
http://www.cellos2go.com/
good
luck!
PS: Order three or four bows on approval and try them
all out for a week before you settle on one of them. Many mail-order
houses will allow this.
Marshall C. St. John
drcello@vei.net
Wayside Presbyterian Church
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lblake
Registered
User
Posts: 411
(8/13/01 10:46:51
pm)
Reply
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Re: Student Bow
recommendations
Todd gave good advice, and to add to it, here is the link to Andy's
bow review.
members.aol.com/bowedstri...eview.html
I also reviewed a lot of the same (sometimes exactly the
same: i'd try them, then mail them to him) composite bows (I only
tried cello bows, though) as Andy, and came to almost all of the
same conclusions as he did.
While I agree with Todd that you
can find some exceptional shop bows (especially brazilian, from what
I've seen) in that price range, I also think they're harder to
find... you have to try a lot... the composites are somewhat more
consistent. So, it depends some upon your availability to try them.
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Andrew
Victor
Registered
User
Posts: 374
(8/14/01 10:26:43
am)
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Re: Student Bow
recommendations
My reply was almost complete when my computer crashed. I hope it
works this time - that's a lot of time to waste - and this reply
will be different, because I can never remember exactly what I have
said or written.
I agree with all who wrote above. L.Blake is
prescient in her use of the word "exceptional" to describe those
rare pernambuco bows that outclass their price range. Don't count on
finding one!
I think in this price range (under $500) the
Coda Conservatory is the "gold standard." You might find a better
pernambuco bow at that price - unless the maker or dealer had
spotted it first and raised the price. I think makers stick silver
on such bows, if they detect them instead of the more common nickel
- and gold trim if they are even better. The Musicary is another
potential good bet - but I've not tried their cello bows. Their
violin bows run stiffer than the Coda Classic. I recall that the
Coda Conservatory may not be quite as stiff as the Coda Classic.
Siffness in a bow is good for stable handling, but it can prevent an
interplay between hand/fingers, stick, and hair that a softer bow
stick provides for (if you know how to do it).
The first
thing to evaluate in a "bow audition" is the sound you can make with
it. Very often bows are not fitted with the optimal amount of a hair
and it may be necessary to adjust the tightness to a different
degree than you usually do to get the particular bow to its optimum
tightness for the hair in it. (If you come to own it, you can later
give it a careful haircut if it has too much hair or have it
rehaired if it has too little.) Once you have gotten the best sound
out of the hair - the rest of the "acoustic job" depends on the
stick itself. In this, the best pernambuco sticks do seem able to
give more and better sound than composite sticks (but we're not
talking about $500 bows here - more like 10X to 60X more expensive,
6X only if you are lucky in your search).
Next you check out
the bow's ability to perform the strokes you want it to and to be
stable in your hand. Some features, such as a slightly too thick or
thin or misplaced thumb leather can be easily adjusted. a bounce
that goes crazy on spiccato or sautille, or that is not sufficient,
is a part of the bow that may not be fixable -BUT - even that can be
subject to changing the balance of the bow by adding or removing
weight from the frog end, or by rehairing so that the stick flexes
from a different pretensioned level when you play with it. To test
for mechanical behavior, you may have to readjust the hair tightness
away from the optimum sound. Also keep the strings clean of rosin -
audition bows often have too much rosin on them from previous test
playing.
An experienced player really needs to go along with
the student. (My own bow expertise (such as it may be, however
slight) even after 60 years of violin playing and 50 years of cello
- really only started to emerge in the past 3 years after I obtained
my first Coda Classic violin bow and began to wonder why it behaved
better than my other bows (as well as many other wonderings I had),
including my F.N. Voirin. I have now learned and adjusted enough
that the Voirin is indeed worthy of it's maker's name, and the Coda
has assumed its rightful place.
A light, very stiff bow, such
as an Arcus, can help a player use a bow with stability (no wobble)
and eveness across the strings. The lightness can be a big advantage
in maneuvering, although the reduced force on the strings can make
you do things with your own muscles that you might avoid with a
heavier bow. It's definitely a tradeoff.
At perfect
adjustment, the best cello bows actually behave as though the
ability to do perfect staccato and sautille were built-in and
"motorized." I've not found a bow of synthetic materials that will
do that for me, and even just a small percentage of expensive,
well-named bows have done it for me.
I better quit this time,
while my computer is still working.
Andy
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Andrew
Victor
Registered
User
Posts: 375
(8/14/01 10:36:58
am)
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|
Addendum
Now that I have succeeded in getting that on line, I'd like to add
a little more about less expensive composite cello bows.
If
your cello can get a decent sound with the Glasser Composite or
Carbon Fiber bows (or a CF Durro, if you can still find one, I was
told they ceased production), they are definitely worth considering.
The sticks tend to be on the soft side, but they handle pretty
well.
My own experience with pernambuco cello bows retailing
for less than $1,000 has not been very good - although I will agree
with lblake that there are exceptions - and I too have seen some in
new Brazilian bows - at least if you can negotiate on price. Marco
Raposo bows I've seen from Stevens Violin Shop in San Jose, seemed
to be quite good, although other Raposo bows I saw (and tried) at
lower prices from other shops seemed to be typical of other bows for
the price asked. I don't know at all how buying and selling
wholesale in that market works.
Andy
|
Manolian
Registered User
Posts: 31
(8/15/01 7:59:59 am)
Reply
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RE: Student Bow
Recommendations
I got A Coda Bow Colours for under $500.
And My teacher
commented that for the money
I could not have done better .
I
compared it to some pernambuco bows in the 300-500 dollar range and
The codabow was far superior.
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Andrew
Victor
Registered
User
Posts: 378
(8/16/01 8:37:27
am)
Reply
|
And Even
More!
Yesterday I received back my old Glasser Composite and Glasser
Carbon Fiber bows (I'd left them [on consignment] with a violin
maker friend for possible sale) because another friend expressed
interest in examining and possibly buying one.
I must say
that I'm quite surprised at how good they are!
They handle
very well, the sound is excellent (on the cello I tried them on) -
there are a very few iffy notes, one has to play around, or adjust
the hair tension to do better - but it can be done.
The bows
do have too much hair (279 and 263 strands respectively) for their
stiffness. The Composite weighs 78.5 grams, the CF weighs 76.7
grams. Other physical characteristics are quite close - the
stiffness agreement is within 6% (the CF being stiffer with a CF
Durro's stiffness right in between the two values). The CG of both
Glasser bows is 10.5 inches from the frog-end screw cap. Actually
the two Glasser bows have their CG 1/2 to 1 inch further from the
frog than the other cello bows I have. Perhaps the only reason I had
preferred the CF Durro when I put the Glasser bows on consignment 8
months ago was because it behaved differently with "only" 208
hairs.
The cello's wolf note is pretty well eliminated with
the Bice eliminator when played with my other bows, but there is
just a slightly different sound added at that note (I think) with
the Glasser CF but even less with the Composite. On some cellos this
might not show up; one would not say it behaves like a
"wolf."
I add these comments, because someone might consider
these Glasser bows to have very real advantages for their currently
available discount prices. For my own tastes, I think the less
expensive Glasser Composite is actually the better of the two bows
(even with all the hair it has) - and it can be had for about $135
from many dealers, while the Glasser CF seems to be selling for
about $250 thse days.
Andy
P.S. By the way, ever since
I started systematically "testing" bows about 15 months ago, I've
contemplated developing some analytical assessment method. I have
now (over the past 2 months) developed a "Bow Calculator" EXCEL
spreadsheed based on the 29 violin (15), viola (6), and cello ( 8 )
bows I have had to make measurements on (and some physics). I hope
to make it available on-line from my violin-bow-review webpage as
soon as I have added some methods for calculating the differences in
"finger force" requirements for the different bows. But at the
present time, the method seems to give a rational, calculable basis
for determining the ideal number of hairs for a bow of given
stiffness, camber, and zero-tension hair offset from the stick OR
alternatively, for the optimum standoff of hair from the stick to
get the best sound given the number of hairs currently in the bow.
(Some allowance should be [but is not] made for variations in hair
thickness and type of hair.) It does appear that the best sound from
a bow occurs if the tension in the hairs is such that the hairs are
strained (stretched) about 0.5mm when the bow is tensioned. The best
I've been able to determine this requires a tension force of about
0.024 Newtons (the force equivalent of 0.0025 kilogram) per hair.
For the 29 bows I have in hand (haired, cambered, etc. as they are)
this seems require hair offsets from the stick at optimum tensioning
that ranges 4.1 to 10.6 mm.
Quite a range! But applying the
results yesterday I felt that I got pretty close to the same sound
qualities from four diverse violin bows: F.N. Voirin, Berg Deluxe,
Arcus Concerto, and Glasser Composite. Of course the bows have
differences in other respects - one would hope so - to acount for a
price (value) range of at least 50 to 1.
Based on the VIOLIN
bows I have on hand I currently think a standoff of about 7 to 8 mm
(about the thickness of a pencil - as we might have often been told
by our teachers) allows for the best interaction of the stick with
the hair and the hand. I don't have a feeling (yet) that this same
value applies to viola and cello bows. One usually compromises
between such a standoff value and what the bow delivers because of
the number of hairs in it. But experienced players will often
tension a bow to a degree they are used to on a particular bow
rather than what is best for the bow they have in hand at the moment
- I've seen a lot of that!
Of course if a bow has too much
hair, a careful "trim" is always possible - and I've done a good bit
of that (as well as paying for rehairing just to bring some bows up
to a higher amount of hair so that I could do these experiments)
over the past several months.
Anyone willing to work a
spreadsheet without explanations can request a copy from me - but I
should have it finished (at least further along, if not really
complete) very soon and will then make it available on line.
Edited by: Andrew
Victor at: 8/16/01 6:45:15 pm
|
Todd
French
Moderator
Posts: 239
(8/16/01 9:33:25 am)
Reply
|
Re: And Even
More!
<<P.S. By the way, ever since I started systematically
"testing" bows about 15 months ago, I've contemplated developing
some analytical assessment method. I have now (over the past 2
months) developed a "Bow Calculator" EXCEL spreadsheed based on the
29 violin (15), viola (6), and cello ( bows I have had to make
measurements on (and some physics). I hope to make it available
on-line from my violin-bow-review webpage as soon as I have added
some methods for calculating the differences in "finger force"
requirements for the different bows. But at the present time, the
method seems to give a rational, calculable basis for determining
the ideal number of hairs for a bow of given stiffness, camber, and
zero-tension hair offset from the stick OR alternatively, for the
optimum standoff of hair from the stick to get the best sound given
the number of hairs currently in the bow. (Some allowance should be
[but is not] made for variations in hair thickness and type of
hair.) It does appear that the best sound from a bow occurs if the
tension in the hairs is such that the hairs are strained (stretched)
about 0.5mm when the bow is tensioned. The best I've been able to
determine this requires a tension force of about 0.024 Newtons (the
force equivalent of 0.0025 kilogram) per hair. For the 29 bows I
have in hand (haired, cambered, etc. as they are) this seems require
hair offsets from the stick at optimum tensioning that ranges 4.1 to
10.6 mm. >>
I was just going to say that...
Wow!
:-)
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Todd
French
Moderator
Posts: 240
(8/16/01 9:35:21 am)
Reply
|
Re: And Even
Even More!
(side note - just to let all of you know, Andy is (literally) a
rocket scientist and retired physicist (correct me if I'm wrong) for
the Navy. Those brains don't just come with playing cello, let me
tell you...)
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DWThomas
Registered User
Posts: 391
(8/16/01 9:48:19 am)
Reply
|
And he hasn't
even mentioned ...
Young's Modulus -- yet -- you oughta see some of the threads on
HPSCHD-L about harpsichord wire.
Tuning and temperament is
another topic to bring out bewildering displays of math and
theory.
Actually, I enjoy seeing attempts to account for all
these mysterious characteristics via tangible, scientific
explanations. It's just that one must not take that as the be-all
and end-all. It still comes back to that old bit "If it sounds good,
it is good!" The theories work, but the models can be quite
elusive.
-Dave (with a broad but thin background in many
disciplines  )
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dwthomas_asylum/homepage.htm |
AGabbert
Registered User
Posts: 21
(8/17/01 3:02:28 pm)
Reply
|
Re: Student Bow
recommendations
Thank you everyone.
I find it interesting that the composite
bows seem to dominate the discussion.
I actually had already
suggested the student might try one or two vs. the pernambuco bows.
The mother of the student seems reluctant because she read somewhere
that "pernambuco is best."
I'll suggest the Coda Conservatory
to at least compare.
I have only purchased one bow in the
last 15 years and that was a Berg. I got it as a good all-purpose
back up. I find it reliable, and although it is not as deep or
diverse as my much more expensive French bow (L. Bazin), it makes me
feel a hell of a lot better when sitting in an opera pit next to a
wall, or in steamy, buggy outdoor concerts!
I have never
bought a student bow, so I wasn't sure how the lower level
composites compared to comparably priced wood bows.
Thanks
again for all the detailed reviews, comments, etc. on
composites.
If anyone has any specific experiences with the
lower level pernambuco bows (Kroger, Voirin, Knoll, Reiner, etc.)
please add them.
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