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MsCheryl
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Posts: 259
(8/8/01 1:02:52
pm)
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The high and
"squeeky" thing
Alright, I've sat here for awhile reading these posts and finally
(perhaps due to summer ennui) feel that I must contribute my two
cents. I understand totally what Dennis is talking about, and from
an acoustical point of view, it seems legit - there are fewer
overtones and sympathetic vibration up in that register, so of
course the sound will be "thinner" than in the lower registers - not
to mention the actual amount of string vibrating. So, he is
perfectly right in his comment. However, I feel that one of my jobs
as a cellist is to make anything I play on the instrument rich and
"cello-like", so I do practice 4 octave scales with this goal in
mind. The perk to this is that when you then play in the "3 octave
scale" range, the sound is that much nicer.
Cheryl (who
loves the Prokofiev Sonata, 1st mvt. precisely because of his use of
the low range!!! Mmmmmm.)
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 Steve
Drake
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Posts: 416
(8/8/01 2:04:20
pm)
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Semantic
problems.
The way the word squeaky is normally used in the cello context is to
designate a sound produced that is a high pitched, harmonic variant
of the desired pitch, typically produced by bad bow technique, or
perhaps aided by left hand fingers that aren't pressed down all the
way.
Dennisw has chosen to designate any sound produced
above a certain range, such as the cello on the A string above the
2nd octave harmonic, as being squeaky sounding. This is an odd
choice, but he's made it, and is sticking with it. It's a shame that
the bulk of violin writing is in that register, as it all must sound
squeaky to him.
I find it odd that he's been posting on this
forum, as I can't imagine any professional cellist or teacher
shunning the higher registers on the cello, regardless of how they
sound. Too much great music has notes up there, and I can't imagine
a professional being able to have much of a career without being
able to use that range fluently. Personally, I love the high end of
the cello, and don't get a squeaky sound up there, unless it's
requested.
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MsCheryl
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Posts: 260
(8/8/01 3:47:41
pm)
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Re: Semantic
problems.
However, Steve, the violin has more sympathetic vibration and
general string vibration because all of it's strings are higher,
therefore, the higher end sound is not as thin as it is on the
cello. This could be why it sounds "squeakier" to play a high note
on the cello versus playing the same note on the violin. Granted,
some composers write up there with the intention of having a more
intense sound - which some might consider "squeaky". I agree it's
mainly a matter of semantics - and if Dennis practices a 3 octave B
Major (or minor) scale, he's already in that range!
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dennisw
Registered User
Posts: 232
(8/8/01 5:25:21 pm)
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Re: Semantic
problems.
Hi Steve,
MsCheryl's got it right. Try re-reading her
post.
I don't "shun" the upper registers above the 2nd
harmonic. I never said that I did. I use it the way almost all
composers use it, for special fx.
There's nothing illegal
about a thin (squeeky) sound. Depending on the context, it can be
quite charming, or it can be humerous. Heaven knows what kind of
sounds have been emitted from the cello in the last 100
years.
You can get these sounds, however, w/o 4 octave or 5
octave scale practicing.
For me, technique is a means to an
end, not an end in itself.
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RebeccaCello
Registered User
Posts: 120
(8/16/01 12:32:12 pm)
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Re: Semantic
problems.
I know I'm not supposed to be here but I can't understand how anyone
who plays the cello doesn't love the higher register....especially a
professional. The sound isn't thin at all, to me it sounds like a
beautiful violin. I love the higher register the most and have even
played some violin arrangments (such as the first Beethoven violin
romance).
Maybe it is the cellist that gets squeaky after the
second harmonic not the cello.
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CelloBass
Registered User
Posts: 54
(8/16/01 2:35:09 pm)
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Re: The high and
"squeeky" thing
MsCheryl,
the "squeekyness" seems to depend very much on the
particular instrument. I have 2 cellos. On my first cello all notes
above the second-octave-a sound like a loud and penetrating whistle.
In addition, it is difficult to play notes above the d''' where the
fingerboard ends. They don't speak, or they whistle. No chance to
play them soft or sweet. On my second cello, it is a Gliga, those
notes sound brilliant and expressive. They speak easily and have
still strong overtones. They are weaker than the same notes played
on a violin, but the timbre is very similar. It is a pleasure to
play them, and they are not squeeky at all. Do you know Mischa
Maisky's interpretation of the Haydn D-major? He plays the d'''',
five (!) octaves higher than the lowest d on the C-string. Of course
there is no fingerboard anymore. On the Gliga I can play this easily
- except intonation  On my other
cello - no way. Two weeks ago I discussed this matter with my
luthier. He said that the Gliga has a very fine and evenly grained
top, one of the best tops he has ever seen on a cello. And he
explained to me that those vertical grains work like transmission
lines. My other cello's top is grained much coarser and pretty
unevenly, so those high frequencies are absorbed by the wood and
transformed into heat by internal friction. Therefore the body of
the cello draws so much energy from the string that the high notes
don't speak anymore. The fine top of the Gliga supports those high
notes, it still resonates and transmits those high frequencies along
the top instead of eating them up
My
conclusion is that somebody who calls those notes squeeky has
perhaps not played them yet on an instrument that is strong in that
register...
Horst
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dennisw
Registered User
Posts: 238
(8/16/01 3:50:54 pm)
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Re: Semantic
problems.
Perhaps you don't understand the way sound is produced on the cello.
Please read the post from MsCheryl on this thread. She explains it
well.....
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CelloBass
Registered User
Posts: 55
(8/16/01 6:14:39 pm)
Reply
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Re: Semantic
problems.
Dennisw,
does your reply relate to my comment?
Horst
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dennisw
Registered User
Posts: 240
(8/17/01 12:39:41 pm)
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Re: Semantic
problems.
no, not really...
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AGabbert
Registered User
Posts: 23
(8/18/01 1:23:36 am)
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Re: The high and
"squeeky" thing
Dennis,
Would you consider the sounds produced by Isserlis (or
Ma) on his Tavener Protecting Veil recordings to be
squeaky?
I missed the earlier discussion and I'm trying to
get a grasp on what you consider squeaky.
Thanks.
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dennisw
Registered User
Posts: 241
(8/20/01 2:21:28 pm)
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Re: The high and
"squeeky" thing
Sorry, I haven't heard them. I've heard Mr. Starker's Elfentanz
(high-registration) and consider it to be squeeky. I also consider
Mr. Starker to be one of the finest cellists I have ever heard play
the instrument (live or recorded).
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harriclay
Registered User
Posts: 21
(8/20/01 3:16:54 pm)
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Re: The high and
"squeeky" thing
I think Elfentanz (the very high part, anyway) is supposed to be
squeaky. It's one of those tone-color things ... little dancing
elves, etc. ...
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dennisw
Registered User
Posts: 242
(8/21/01 2:01:33 pm)
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Re: The high and
"squeeky" thing
You're absolutely correct. I have been trying to get that point
across for the last 2 months.
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AGabbert
Registered User
Posts: 24
(8/22/01 11:20:34 pm)
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Re: The high and
"squeeky" thing
I would say that the tone color in a Starker performance of
Elfentanz and Isserlis in Tavener's Veil are about as different as
it can get...
Whether you would consider it "squeaky" only
you can answer...
But, as you said, not if you've never heard
it.
I missed the earlier discussion, but I would suggest that
upper register notes when played short are far more likely to be
"squeaky" than longer more lushly played upper register notes.
As
for how lush those wind up being...
It depends on the cellist and
their tone concept/ability.
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dennisw
Registered User
Posts: 244
(8/23/01 4:17:59 pm)
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Re: The high and
"squeeky" thing
Well for the 20th time, I'll say it again: The range above the 2nd
harmonic on the a string gets increasingly thin and is the analog to
a falsetto used by a tenor. You can use any adjective you want to
describe the sound, but it is not the strongest range for the cello,
either by volume or tone quality. On top of that, it is an awkward
range to play in. That is why it is rarely used by composers. That
doesn't mean it is not an effective range, but it is used sparingly,
usually for harmonics, arpeggios, special effects, and the
like.
There are some cellists, apparantly, who believe that
it is an appropriate range to play, for example, violin
transcriptions. I am not one of them. I find it to be unusual that
anyone would want to do that, unless the music itself were to be
comical (light-hearted), or experimental.
I believe a better
argument could be made for a 5-string cello or a violoncello-piccolo
to play viola and violin music.
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Steve
Drake
Registered
User
Posts: 436
(8/23/01 8:24:39
pm)
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Community Supporter
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Re: The high and
"squeeky" thing
A quote from Dennisw, posted 7/19--
>
Well, this will be
my final posting on the subject......
>
My MP3's
My Cello
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AGabbert
Registered User
Posts: 25
(8/23/01 11:13:44 pm)
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Re: The high and
"squeeky" thing
Dennis,
I think you have a reasonable point, but not an absolute
one.
Of course there is an ideal range to the instrument!... as
there is with every instrument. That doesn't mean that there aren't
people out there capable of quite beautifully going beyond... (and
many that perhaps I'd rather not hear try!)
The upper range
of the instrument in the hands of the right player can, in my
opinion, sound every bit as beautiful or lush as a violin, and
certainly a viola.
It takes a very skilled performer...
More
skills than most of us have on the average day.
To give an
instrumental parallel:
One could also make a blanket statement
that the Bass as an instrument is gruff in tone, fuzzy in
articulation, and that intonation is much more difficult and rarely
accurate...
And therefore attempts by bass players to transcribe
the Bach cello suites are absurd.
I thought that until I
heard Edgar Meyer's recording.
(BTW... your choice of a
falsetto tenor is in my opinion, a dicey one. I have heard
countertenors produce far more beautiful tones and sounds than a lot
of big name tenors.
Different... yes! But for some music, it can
be magical.)
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AGabbert
Registered User
Posts: 26
(8/23/01 11:16:27 pm)
Reply
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Re: The high and
"squeeky" thing
That's not really fair.
I asked him a question.
I'm sorry if
I have dug up something sensitive to others.
My intent was to
understand his opinion, not fan flames.
Cheers.
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Steve
Drake
Registered
User
Posts: 437
(8/24/01 1:48:04
pm)
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Community Supporter
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Re: The high and
"squeeky" thing
Not fair? Maybe, Maybe not.
See page 6 on the main cello
chat board for the start of this discussion, since you've mentioned
that you missed it. It's in 4-oct arps. I don't really know why it
moved here - it belongs on the main board or the cbn board. Email me
for details, Andrew.
My MP3's
My Cello
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RebeccaCello
Registered User
Posts: 121
(8/25/01 9:37:17 am)
Reply
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high and
squeaky????
I shouldn't be here but I wondered if dennisw had heard Han Na
Chang's interpretation of Resphighi's Adagio con variazioni and does
he find it squeaky.
I also wondered if the size of the
instrument made a difference to how sound is produced.
Personally
I find artificial harmonics squeaky but the higher register can be
stunning.
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