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Laura
Wichers
Moderator
Posts: 1122
(9/6/01 6:33:58 pm)
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MTV Video Awards
and rock performances
So I'm confused. Why is it that classical musicians are expected to
give performances of the utmost quality... excellent intonation,
musical phrasing, rhythm, and everything else. But all the pop/rock
concerts I've ever seen (with the exceptions of the Moody Blues,
Dave Matthews, and Bare Naked Ladies) have had SERIOUS problems with
pitch. It's so irritating to see/hear these people hailed as
excellent singers/musicians and then watch them give performances
where the majority of the pitches are sketchy. Is it because the
back-up is so loud they can't hear themselves? I thought that's what
the earpieces were for. Maybe it's because they are so used to
having someone at a board who can just tweak them back in tune.
Aaargh.
Oh yeah, and here's hoping they don't burn down the
house!
Laura
Edited by: Laura
Wichers at: 9/6/01 6:34:29 pm
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mvotapek
Registered User
Posts: 12
(9/6/01 6:57:16 pm)
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Video killed the
radio star
I've heard a few very talented and pitch-centered rock bands in
clubs...i think the difference is that they are the actual musicians
(though biased me would never admit they are on the level of most
classical musicians), as opposed to the pretty faces that get picked
up by record companies and turned into "stars" for people to watch
on MTV. I'm not old enough to really know, but weren't the rock
stars of the late 50's 60's and 70's (pre-MTV) more substantial
musicians in concert?
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dennisw
Registered User
Posts: 248
(9/6/01 7:31:55 pm)
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Re: Video killed
the radio star
I'd say the talent-level is about the same as it always has been,
but the demands on today's pop-musicians have changed. Now, the
focus is on multi-media presentation and (of course) entertainment.
It isn't hard to see how the actual music gets shoved into the
background. Think of it as music being one of many factors involved
in getting the record to sell.
Another thing to consider is
this: pop-musicians ALWAYS execute music well within their ability
to play/sing. If the melody is too high-up, it's played in a
different key. If the music is too difficult, it's changed to
accomodate the player's abilities. Melodies are in simple keys,
modulations are kept to a minimum, harmonies are basically major or
minor and very open-sounding. The most complicated part of the music
is usually the rhythm, but that's why you have a drummer.
Any band not able to play their own songs in tune might as
well pack it in. A slip-up or two on the road is no big deal, but
intonation always gets fixed in the studio, before the record is
released. Intonation, volume levels etc etc all come under the
heading of "technical problems" that are the responsibility of the
producer.
I still like Bill Haley's comment from the early
50's: "No one said it was GOOD music, but people need
it."
Edited by: dennisw
at: 9/6/01 7:37:41 pm
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drcello
Registered User
Posts: 593
(9/6/01 9:29:42 pm)
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| Edit
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What do people
want from performers?
The answer is: 1)They want their emotions stirred. 2)They are
attracted to personality, not to musicianship. 3)They are looking
for a group experience...to be one of a tribe.
Get used to
it. The educated crowd that goes for classical music, and cares
about subtle nuances, and cares for the music itself more than the
person who performs it, will ALWAYS be tiny compared to those who
are looking for thrills and gripping personalities. That's life!
Marshall C. St. John
drcello@vei.net
Wayside Presbyterian Church
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 Steve
Drake
Registered
User
Posts: 457
(9/6/01 11:24:30
pm)
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Community Supporter
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Re: Video killed
the radio star
I'm with Dennis on this - it's just rock and roll. Intonation is
just a minor part of the audio landscape.
Standards vary -
some pop singers can get away with atrocious intonation for the sake
of a good performance, but some can sing in tune and still put on a
killer performance. I've done numerous road gigs with Amy Grant, and
seen her do fantastic performances, but never sing an out of tune
note, ever. She's just one of the ones with a gift for that. Some of
the others I've played with have done amazing performances, despite
some lackluster intonation.
You need to remember that as
trained musicians, we might have an ear for intonation, but others
might not, and shoddy intonation won't bother them.
My MP3's
My Cello
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Ponticello
Registered
User
Posts: 131
(9/7/01 2:10:50
am)
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Pitch during Pop
music concerts
It's amusing to think that one would hold rock/pop/etc.
performances to the same standards of pitch and tone quality as are
held for classical musicians.
On the one hand, we have for
instance Slava playing the Dvorak with the NY Phil at Lincoln
center. Sitting down in a chair, in a tux, the entire performance,
with the only sounds he has to listen to other than himself are the
orchestra, and a audience members who cough and sniffle. OF course
Slava has near flawless intonation
Then on the other hand, we
have Jennifer Lopez and Ja rule at the MTV awards performing. Rather
than sitting Lopez dances all across the stage, wearing a tight
revealing outfit, including high heel shoes, trying to pull her
stomach in as tight as possible since it's so exposed, holding a
microphone in hand, with a dozen dancers zooming around her, and a
roaring on their feet crowd. But despite the spectacular show put
on, I suppose it's valid to say that she has little musicianship
since she is not singing quite in tune, not nearly with Slava's
precision.
I hardly think it is rocket science to realize
that most pop music has a very strong visual element that classical
does not have. Current genres of pop music need to display engaging
visual imagery, along with catchy music in order to succeed. And I'm
sure Laura Wichers knows for a fact that most pop singers are tone
dead and rely solelyon recording studio electronics to produce the
highly popular million dollar pop music industry CDs.
Please
think before you judge. It really serves no purpose at all but to
undermine other people and their work and there is no need for it.
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bridge
Registered
User
Posts: 182
(9/7/01 1:11:13
pm)
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Re: Pitch during
Pop music concerts
I'd like to agree with the difference between rock and pop. Could
you compare The Beatles with The Monkees? Can you compare 'N Sync
with the Dave Matthews Band?
MTV is about POP, period. And
pop is a whole genre unto itself.
I'd also like to agree with
the idea that R and R is about more than music. I like Lou Reed.
It's not his singing! It's his lyrics. Music is to stir you.
Sometimes the delivery does the trick even if the music is not
complex. If it's constantly out of tune . . . well that sucks, but
the occasional slip . . . I don't care.
Now, on the other
hand, I saw Pavoratti (sp?) do some god aweful thing with BB King
where he was singing the blues. Oh yeah, his intonation was fine . .
. but my god . . . it was EMBARASSING!
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ruthann
Registered
User
Posts: 580
(9/7/01 1:19:29
pm)
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Re: MTV Video
Awards and rock performances
Not all pop singers have poor intonation. And not all poor
intonation makes for bad pop music - Neil Young for
example.
But poor intonation in classical music is always
bad!!
cello_suttonr@hotmail.com |
dennisw
Registered User
Posts: 249
(9/7/01 1:50:50 pm)
Reply
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Re: What do
people want from performers?
FWIW: Jazz musicians largely have the same complaints about
mass-audience music as do many classical musicians.
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dennisw
Registered User
Posts: 251
(9/7/01 6:14:39 pm)
Reply
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Re: Video killed
the radio star
This reminds me of some old studio gigs I used to play. As I
remember, singers were the absolute worst. Most of them couldn't
read music and most had no sense whatsoever of rhythm.
It's
good to read that real pro's, like Amy Grant, know what they are
doing.
Usually it was the singer who couldn't sing in range
in the key. If the arrangement was in Eb (for example) usually for
the benefit of the horn players, the singer would be screaming that
it was out of range.
So, the arranger would run in & say
"ok, let's try the same thing in D". Then, if that failed the
singer's "requirements" we'd try Db, then C, then "Cb". The arranger
was usually a guitar player, so they didn't bother to re-mark the
notes. They always figured that transposing was the same for string
players (play in different keys & use the same
fingerings).
All the wizardry seemed to happen behind the
mixing-board, most of it in post-production. The differences between
finished product and raw-mixes was truly remarkable.
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justinkagan1
Registered
User
Posts: 425
(9/8/01 8:55:25
am)
Reply
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Re: MTV Video
Awards and rock performances
I didn't get to see the show but can tell you that the Met was like
a locust hive for some five days, and it was daunting getting
through security and the gazillion miles of cables they had all over
the place. Limos parked outside by the dozens. i was hoping to run
into J.Lo or Carson daly for an autograph for my daughter. We
rehearse two levels down from the stage and could still feel the
walls shaking during the Idomeneo rehearsal. It's just revenue for
the House...they get more than a million from MTV for this show.
Were there any live musicians during the show, to anyone who
watched? I got the impression that there weren't, since purportedly
the pit was filled with fans. It was haute bizarre how they
completely consumed Lincoln Center with the goings-on....worse than
any Presidential motorcade by tons. Thanks Dog it's only every 2
years (at the Met, at worst)
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Laura
Wichers
Moderator
Posts: 1123
(9/8/01 9:48:36 am)
Reply
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Re: MTV Video
Awards and rock performances
I didn't see the whole thing (early classes the next day), but the
only "live" musicians I saw were a pair of electric violins and an
electric cello. Thinking about it, they looked like those silent
Yamahas. They were up on the stage during the opening thing with the
host whatshisname.
Laura
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dennisw
Registered User
Posts: 252
(9/8/01 12:33:58 pm)
Reply
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Re: MTV Video
Awards and rock performances
I had a similar experience years ago at Carnegie Hall performance
when an Allman Bros. concert was going on in the big hall. The walls
shook there too....
Oddly enough, a couple of Allman Bros.
fans, gate crashing, wound up backstage at our concert. We told them
"nice try but no cigar, you won't find Duane anywhere around here."
They checked us out for a while, shrugged their shoulders and
decided to stay. Hey, a free ride is a free ride, after
all....
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Nicholas
Anderson
Registered
User
Posts: 121
(9/8/01 4:06:21
pm)
Reply
|
Re: What do
people want from performers?
Sorry - tried to post an image, but couldn't make ezcodes work.
Might try again!
-Nick
![]()
Edited by: Nicholas
Anderson at: 9/8/01 5:58:32 pm
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Bobbie
Registered User
Posts: 650
(9/8/01 5:21:26 pm)
Reply
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Re: What do
people want from performers?
Nick, if you are posting a link to the image, just paste in the URL
for the image and it should work.
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Nicholas
Anderson
Registered
User
Posts: 122
(9/8/01 5:27:17
pm)
Reply
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Re: What do
people want from performers?
Bobbie - the image is now on a floppy disk on my computer. Any idea
of how to make that work in a post? I tried to follow the ezcodes
instructions for that, but I'm doing something wrong. Never tried to
do this before, so I'm stumbling around! Thanks for your help! -Nick
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Bobbie
Registered User
Posts: 651
(9/8/01 5:41:52 pm)
Reply
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Re: What do
people want from performers?
I don't know how to post an image that isn't already on the net.
Sorry.
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Daniel
Ortbals 
Registered
User
Posts: 224
(9/8/01 6:51:12
pm)
Reply
![]() |
Re: What do
people want from performers?
Why don't you just upload the image from your floppy to your
website, then use that URL for the image?
Dan
O |
Nicholas
Anderson
Registered
User
Posts: 124
(9/8/01 11:47:51
pm)
Reply
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Re: What do
people want from performers?
Thanks very much, Dan, for the suggestion. It might come to that -
if I can even figure *that* out! Someone else handles the website
for me, and I have very limited computer skills and equipment. Just
haven't been able to find enough hours in the day to deal with all
that marvelous technological stuff, though I hope to
eventually.
It was just an old "Far Side" cartoon that I was
trying to post, which I thought would make an amusing response to
Marshall's comment. After all this, I'm afraid it would be a bit
anti-climactic. I would, though, like to know how to do that - so
we'll see if I get any further with it! Thanks again to you and
Bobbie-
-Nick
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