| Author |
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kgoede
Registered
User
Posts: 6
(8/22/01 2:34:07
pm)
Reply
|
learning correct
intonation
I'm a beginner with only 2 months of lessons. I seem to have a
decent understanding of music theory, due to playing piano for 7
years. Trying to learn the correct placement of my fingers and
intonation has been exceedingly frustrating, and I never know when
I'm too high or low. My cello teacher is against using tape, and I
don't have a piano at home. Does anyone have any good suggestions?
I'm thinking that taking a singing class might help me out. As long
as there is enough sight-reading and not too much repetition of the
same pieces.
|
MaryK
Registered
User
Posts: 688
(8/22/01 3:17:09
pm)
Reply
|
Re: learning
correct intonation
How about an ear-training class rather than singing? Also, there
are ear-training cassettes/CD's available which might help.
It's best to develop your ear so that you can tell when
you're in tune just by listening. I believe people need to have
pretty decent ears before they start to learn a stringed
instrument.
Or, do you mean you want to be able to get an
idea of what the piece will sound like before you play it, in which
case a sight-singing class might well do the trick.
In any
event, good luck.
MaryK
|
CelloBass
Registered User
Posts: 63
(8/22/01 3:51:55 pm)
Reply
|
Re: learning
correct intonation
Hi,
you need a pitch reference while you play. If you have a
computer and soundcard, get the program CoolEdit from Syntrillium,
www.syntrillium.com. With this program you can generate every note
you wish at correct pitch. Then, when you play a piece or an etude
in C-major, generate a continous C and have it played by the
computer while you play. Whenever you play out of tune, it will
sound horrible and you will quickly learn how you have to take the
intonation of c, d, e, f... so that it sounds well and does not
interfere with the C played by the computer. It is important that
you play very slowly so that you have time to correct each note
until it has the correct intonation. The reason why your piano
playing doesn't help you on the cello is that on the piano you never
have to worry about the pitch because all notes have correct pitch
if the piano is tuned correctly. Now, playing the cello, suddenly it
is you who has to do the correct pitch. That is a completely new and
different task that you have to learn from scratch. The good news is
that using the reference method you will learn to hear whether or
not you are on correct pitch, and after a while you won't need the
reference tone anymore. The reference tone will sound in your brain
while you play. The method described above is a good start. My
intonation improved dramatically as soon as I started to play with
piano accompaniment. No, I don't have a piano player at hand  The process
I do is not easy and it takes a while until you get it right, but
the result is stunning. I scan the piano part with a scanner. The
result is a picture of the sheet. Then I do a recognition with a
special program that can recognize the notes on the scanned piano
sheet and transfer the notes to a MIDI file. Then the MIDI file is
played using real piano sounds and it is recorded to a WAV file at
the same time. Finally, the WAV file is transfered to a normal audio
CD that can be played by every CD player. That way I get the piano
accompaniment of the piece, and I can define the speed it is played
at. For example, when I want to learn a piece that should finally be
played at a metronome speed of 120, I make a CD with several
versions of the piano accompaniment on it, having speeds of 80,
90...120. That way I can speed it up slowly always making sure that
I stay in tune. But I think the simple reference tone method
described above will help you very much. Good luck!
PS.
Don't be discouraged. Getting a pure and reliable intonation takes
much longer than 2 months. Intonation is an issue as long as you
play a stringed instrument, and even professionals who have played
for decades still have to practise intonation from time to time.
Playing a stringed instrument means practising intonation and bowing
for your whole live
Horst
|
beginnerat48
Registered User
Posts: 4
(8/22/01 8:38:31 pm)
Reply
|
Re: learning
correct intonation
Horst, You're certainly know a lot about computers. I'm a cello
beginner of about 3 months and I think I know more about the cello
than the computer. How do I know if I have a soundcard? If I don't
have one, how do I go about getting one? I get lousy sound out of my
speakers. Does that mean I'd need to get new speakers? I have an IBM
clone...pretty basic. Your approach to learning intonation sounds
great. I have little to no ability to determine pitch at this point.
I'm afraid it's driving my teacher nuts. Anyone have any suggestions
on good pitch instruction CD's???
I think this site (and
Cello Chat) is wonderful. I check it out each night before I begin
to practice.
Thanks ahead of time. sue
|
dmarteinson
Registered User
Posts: 20
(8/22/01 10:40:53 pm)
Reply
|
Scanning Piano
Part
Horst,
What's the name of the software you use to convert
the scanned piano part to MIDI?
Regards,
-djm
|
Bobbie
Registered User
Posts: 608
(8/22/01 11:20:09 pm)
Reply
|
Re: learning
correct intonation
I am going to suggest something that will probably generate
controversy, but I strongly recommend getting an electronic tuner. I
think it is invaluable when you are learning where to put your
fingers in a new position, which is not quite the same thing as
learning to play a melody in tune. A hands-free tuner will be like
having someone with a good ear standing there saying "Higher,"
"Lower" and "right on" and pretty soon you won't need the tuner to
know those things yourself.
|
 Daniel
Ortbals 
Registered
User
Posts: 212
(8/23/01 7:37:09
am)
Reply
Community Supporter
 |
Electric
Tuners
Board hopping, yes, I know (but at this point, it doesn't seem to
be a rare thing).
Anyway, I agree that an electric tuner can
be very valuable; however, it can also (when misused) hinder
progress. If you're going to get one, make sure it also can produce
pitches. You can then use Horst's suggestion about playing against a
held pitch, but then you don't have to mess with the computer stuff
if you don't want to. Also, if you're going to use the tuner to
"see" if you're pitches are "right on," first try to determine
yourself whether you are high or low, and THEN look at the tuner to
see if you were correct. The best practising I had with the tuner
was picking a note, say middle C, sliding up to another note with
the same finger, then slide back to the same C, and listen extremely
carefully that you arrive at the EXACT SAME C. THEN, glance at the
tuner and see how well you did. Very quickly you will begin hearing
the differences in the notes, and pretty soon you'll be able to hear
within cents (1 cent = 1/100 of a half step).
If you take the
"easy" way out and just start playing all your notes while looking
at the tuner, you will start relying on the tuner to tell you
whether or not you're in tune, and then it'll be rather difficult to
determine that for yourself once that tuner is not in
sight.
Perhaps this has been mentioned and I just missed it,
but also look to your other strings when playing C's, G's, D's, and
A's. If they are in tune, your corresponding open strings will
vibrate as well.
Dan
O |
Bobbie
Registered User
Posts: 609
(8/23/01 8:39:41 am)
Reply
|
Re: Electric
Tuners
I agree pretty much with what Dan said. But it might be less
expensive to get a tuner and then also get a metronome that has
tuning pitches (not just A) than to get a tuner with tuning pitches.
Also, playing against a set pitch (scales, for example) is useful
once you start to have a sense of intonation. I don't think it would
help much until you start getting close and recognising when you are
off. An electronic tuner is just another kind of ear training.
|
johnism
Registered User
Posts: 6
(8/23/01 9:23:47 am)
Reply
|
Re: learning
correct intonation
CelloBass ( Horst ),
What is the software that you use to
reconize the scanned sheet music and the midi
program?
Thanks,
John
|
CelloBass
Registered User
Posts: 64
(8/23/01 11:32:17 am)
Reply
|
Scanning and
midi
I use Capella Scan to recognize the scanned sheets and Capella 2000
to read in the recognized notes and to transfer them to Midi. On the
MIDI side, I use Cakewalk 8.0 to play them. My soundcard is a SB
AWE32 which is an old one but still one of the best regarding
analogue audio quality, including really nice sampled piano sounds
in its ROM. In addition, I have a S/PDIF interface card. The AWE32
has an undocumented S/PDIF interface at its MIDI output. I have made
I direct connection between the MIDI output of the AWE32 and the
Input of the S/PDIF card. When recording two things happen at the
same time: Cakewalk plays the MIDI, it is tranfered to the S/PDIF
card, and I use CoolEdit to record the sound via the S/PDIF card.
Both programs run simultaneously, it is kind of a loop. The digital
MIDI data are put out and recorded simultaneously. This path is
completely digital, without any quality loss, and the result is a
WAV that can be easily transfered to a audio CD, provided you have a
CD writer. That's my complete setup, and I don't claim that this is
all easy to get working
Unfortunately Capella is German software, www.capella.de, and I
don't think there is an English version, and it is pretty expensive.
But in the meantime there should be English software available that
does the same job, but I haven't figured this out yet. Of course you
don't need a piano score, on most etudes there is no piano
acompaniment available. But you can scan the cello part as well and
play it unisono together with the computer or CD. Not to mention
that you can have the CD played the second part of any duett. This
method reveals any intonation problem mercilessly... I don't know
any other method that is more effective.
Horst
|
Ellen
G 
Registered
User
Posts: 866
(8/23/01 11:39:59
am)
Reply
|
The merit of
tuners
I wish this post were elsewhere because again, I think people are
more knowledgeable elsewhere than here sometimes. All right, stop
grumbling at me.
The thing is, I have experience with two
tuners. One is a Korg DT-3, I think, that our violist swears by, and
forces us all to tune to Saturday morning. It takes us all about 20
minutes because the bow pressure and speed affects the reading. As
the room heats up (which it does when we get aggravated) the strings
change slightly enough in that 20 minutes to cause a different
reading on a freshly-tuned violin. I personally can manage to light
up every light on that darn gizmo in a single bow stroke. Sometimes
I do it on purpose to aggravate Karl. Sometimes because I can't help
it. Ultimately we all curse the tuner, use our ears, match each
other's strings. One guy continues to deliberately tune a string
sharp because of its interaction with other notes when we play.
Oddly enough, that is the violist. Go figure.
The other
experience was with one of these little tuners that sounded so
helpful in the catalog writeup. I got it to help a student of mine
at the time. It lasted here one day, lit up like a Christmas tree in
red and green, and was mailed back. It didn't matter what note you
played or how sharp or flat it was. I thought *I* was sensitive, but
not compared to this thing.
The point of all this is that
you need to develop your ear. Sometimes simplest is best. Just
because gadgets are out there doesn't mean they are always
beneficial. A tuning fork is a really cool thing. Playing notes
against an open string can help. Learning to hear intervals. I may
not hear when a single note is out of tune, but I can sure hear it
in a double stop or a chord. I know a woman who is doing really well
with a computer program. Personally, running around a computer desk
to get to my cello and back isn't a good thing. She's obviously set
up for it, and it's really helped a lot. I'm not sure what she's
using but I could ask.
I realize there are issues
associated with bowing one string let alone two as far as the double
stops thing is concerned, and that is a completely different topic,
though an interesting one. But I believe the time spent listening to
notes against one another and trusting your ears is more valuable
than your visual skills and trying to adjust bow pressure and your
left hand to get the green light.
Now I REALLY wish this
were on the other board. I welcome enlightment, correction, but I
sort of want to know that the person correcting me has a lot of
experience training students successfully and has seen a heck of a
lot more than I have. I don't think those people come here.
|
CelloBass
Registered User
Posts: 65
(8/23/01 11:53:03 am)
Reply
|
Re: learning
correct intonation
Sue,
I am 43 and I have started the cello 3 months ago. But
I have played the double bass for almost 25 years which helps a lot,
and I played the violin when I was young. One could say that I bow
just everything that I get in my hands If your
computer has speakers you are prefectly setup and you can use
CoolEdit. I would recommend that you download their trial version.
If you have done so and need more help, feel free to contact me. I
have to admit that computers are my main job and it is not easy to
start with audio processing on a PC if you haven't done anything
like that before. Are you able to tune the cello? Can you bow two
strings at the same time? It has not to be perfect, just that two
strings make a sound at the same time. And can you play a
C-major-scale starting at the C-string? If yes, start with the C.
Then, when playing the D, the empty d-string is your reference.
Next, when playing the E, bow it together with the empty G-string.
You will hear whether or not the third sounds pure, i.e. the
intonation of your E is correct. And so on... start with very slow
scales, the cello itself provides some references that can help you
finding the correct pitch. There should be CDs with reference tones
on it, but I haven't figured this out yet. Don't be afraid regarding
your teacher. Teachers of stringed instruments should be used to
listening to improper intonation and they should help you to correct
them without getting mad.
Horst
|
CelloBass
Registered User
Posts: 66
(8/23/01 1:26:11 pm)
Reply
|
Re: learning
correct intonation
hgoede,
having read the whole thread I have changed my mind
a bit. If you are familiar with computers, then you can go the way
that I mentioned, using CoolEdit or other programs to generate a
reference tone. If not, then I think an electronic tuner that can
play pitches (!) would be of much help. Of course the long time goal
has to be that you find out by listening to yourself whether or not
your intonation is correct. But when you start playing a stringed
instrument for the first time, somebody or something has to
demonstrate you how the correct pitch sounds. And because this
tuner-way is not very comfortable, as Ellen described correctly, you
will try to find the correct intonation by yourself as soon as
possible, and playing a single reference tone while you play will
support you on this way. This is definitely better than getting used
to wrong intonation and realizing it late, when you play together
with other musicians the first time. And a teacher who keeps telling
you 'too high' or 'you play flat' cannot teach you how to find the
correct intonation. This learning process has to take place in your
ear and in your brain.
Horst
|
Bobbie
Registered User
Posts: 610
(8/23/01 4:24:27 pm)
Reply
|
Re: The merit of
tuners
I agree with most of what Ellen says, except that I'm glad this
topic isn't on the other board and I'll tell you why: when it has
come up there lots of people have jumped on to the anti-tuner
bandwagon. No one would object if a child was starting to learn to
play and his mom in the next room called out, "Your E is flat!" or
helped him tune his instrument so that he could hear the stopped
notes resonate with the open strings. So why object when an adult
beginner wants an "electronic mom" to help learn the pitches?
Putting your fingers in the right place is hard enough for people
who can hear immediately if they are out of tune. Imagine trying to
do it and having no idea if you are right or wrong. Once you find
yourself right a majority of the time, you can wean yourself off the
tuner. When you start to play with other people, you can learn to
tune to their pitches. But at the beginning, with no trained ear to
help you listen, a tuner can be invaluable. I have a Seiko which is
unfortunately no longer available, but I've had it for about nine
years and the only problem is that the battery wires came unhooked
and are taped in place. I still use it to check pitches when I'm
playing something I'm not comfortable with, because if I don't, I
sometimes learn a note wrong and then it is really hard to relearn.
But I don't need it to play in tune or to feel confident that I'm
playing in tune, mainly because when I do check, I'm right on, which
makes me confident when I don't use the tuner.
|
DWThomas
Registered User
Posts: 396
(8/23/01 4:45:36 pm)
Reply
|
Re: The merit of
tuners
I heartily agree with Bobbie.
I've even heard it suggested
that some tuners are evil because they're set up for equal
temperament and will be "off" for string players.
While that
may be technically correct, I for one would be mighty pleased to hit
all my notes within the error of equal vs just temperament! Once I
start getting that close reliably, maybe my ear will take
over!
-Dave (in "meantone" today  )
Dave's
Bakery & Asylum |
ruthann
Registered
User
Posts: 557
(8/23/01 5:12:02
pm)
Reply
|
Re: The merit of
tuners
Okay, okay! I give up!
I'm one of the evil anti-even
temperament people. I still say that your C major scale on the cello
should not match pitch to your piano, or computer, or
tuner.
That being said, for beginners they aren't a bad
thing. Ear training has to start somewhere. But at some point you
need to wean your ear off the piano and think in terms of scales,
arpeggios and double stops.
I, personally, don't have any
problem with putting tape on the fingerboard for beginners. You look
at it a lot at first, then only occasionally. A little spot of
moleskin on the back of the neck to mark the place for the thumb is
very helpful.
If something helps you play in tune, you'll
enjoy it more. Use whatever makes you feel more comfortable.
cello_suttonr@hotmail.com |
Ellen
G
Registered
User
Posts: 867
(8/23/01 5:30:18
pm)
Reply
|
What brand are
you using?
Perhaps if I saw this in action, and it worked well, I might feel
differently. I see what you're saying, and in theory it made sense
to me which is why I bought one in the first place. It was the
aftermath that led to its return and my belief that it wasn't
helpful.
The only tuners I've seen that seem helpful are old
expensive plug-in ones with needles. They have to sit somewhere near
an outlet, not occupy space on your stand where they can fall off
onto your cello. They remind me of Lionel train transformer
thingies.
One of my complaints is the tuners I've seen have
a series of lights that light up incorrectly too many times. It was
confusing, frustrating, and not worth the aggravation.
So
what do you say works, how much is it, how does it work, and how is
it affected by bow speed and pressure? Inquiring minds want to know.
|
Bobbie
Registered User
Posts: 612
(8/23/01 5:59:49 pm)
Reply
|
Re: What brand
are you using?
Mine is a Seiko ST-900 which I don't think is made anymore. The
closest I've seen is an ST-909 which looks like it operates in a
similar fashion. This one has a list of letters (CDEFGAB) and a
needle that goes between -50 cents and 50 cents. A light goes on
under the letter you are closest to in pitch, with the # sign also
lighting up for a halftone. Two other lights show flat or sharp, and
the note is in tune when both of those are lit and the arrow is dead
center. You can adjust the pitch from 438-445. It uses a 9V battery
which lasts quite awhile, although at times I used rechargeable
batteries in it. It can also be hooked up to a DC source but I don't
have one. All you have to do is play the note and it
registers.
The open C sometimes registers as an overtone
instead but you can still tune to it. Faster bow speed will
sometimes up the pitch of the note, and if you do double-stops that
add up to a perfect frequency that note will register instead of
what you are playing. It does not work in a group situation because
it isn't that discriminating, but I recently saw one of the
Intellitouch tuners which you touch to the cello that will, in fact,
work when there is noise around you. I don't think it would work the
way I use mine, though, as a learning tool.
There are some
really inexpensive tuners out that work to tune open strings but
aren't really good for fingered notes. This one cost about $55 years
ago. I've dropped it on the carpet countless times, which may
account for the wiring problem, but otherwise it is still in good
shape. Every time I've checked it against a reference pitch, it is
right on. One caveat, though, is that sometimes as a battery loses
power the tuner loses pitch. This does not seem to happen with mine-
it just won't register if the battery is too low. There is an
indicator for low battery, too.
|
TerryM
Registered
User
Posts: 519
(8/23/01 6:16:36
pm)
Reply
|
Not to
complicate things, but...
To Ellen's point, I recall a long and involved thread on Cello
Chat, a year or so ago, on this issue of tuning. The general
consensus was that one has to develop the ear because string players
do play with expressive intonation and what is "in tune" in absolute
terms may not necessarily be musically right for the harmonic
context of the piece that is being played. "In tune" is a relative
concept and is bound into the harmonic content and direction that
the music is moving. Electronic tuners cannot give this kind of
directional pitch that is required in string playing. They offer
only a starting point. Having said this I do agree that tuning
devices can help in the early stages and that was the gist of this
thread, but only so long as they do not become the final judge of
what is in or out of tune. Ultimately, only the ear can do that.
In my opinion, playing against a drone note is more
effective in learning intonation than using an electronic tuner to
assess whether one is playing in tune or not. As Horst outlined
above, your ear will learn when certain notes are "right" and you
will adjust your fingers accordingly. It does take time and it does
take a great deal of effort, but it is a skill that almost everyone
can develop, so don't get discouraged.
The situation becomes
even more complicated when playing with a piano, because the piano
is tuned to tempered intervals and not the same intervals that
strings by themselves would necessarily play. The relative nature of
pitches being in tune can be quite disconcerting the first few times
you play with piano or other instruments. You think you have lost
your sense of where the notes are on the cello. Even in a quartet
situation the cello has to have its C string tuned slightly sharp to
be in tune with the violins even though the fifths between the G and
C strings may sound in tune on the cello. The response of the human
ear does not follow the strict physics of pitch relations. Try
tuning your cello to perfect fifths by ear after taking your A from
a piano and then compare the C you get with the same C on the piano.
You will find that they will be slightly out of tune to each other.
As your pitch recognition improves in time, you will make
the adjustment necessary to be playing the correct notes given the
harmonic content of the music.
“Luke…trust the
force!”
Terry
|
Ellen
G
Registered
User
Posts: 868
(8/23/01 7:10:32
pm)
Reply
|
Compression
tuning!
I remember Tracie's post about compression tuning. I found it
fascinating that if you kept tuning in 5ths you would ultimately end
up on another note, so you have to tune the C's and then sort of
adjust all the notes in between. For those of you who missed this a
year ago, it was a really interesting thread when explained by them,
as opposed to me. It was referenced in the Guarneri book as well,
which I probably wouldn't have understood had it not been for the
post here.
|
kgoede
Registered
User
Posts: 7
(8/23/01 7:31:19
pm)
Reply
|
Re: learning
correct intonation
Now that I come to think of it… my teacher recommended a really
cheap Korg tuner (not digital) that I could use for tuning my open
strings. I don’t think he intended me to use it for anything else.
All these postings are making me a little bit dizzy, and I think at
this stage in the game I’m not able to grasp everything that’s been
said here. Anyway, I broke down and bought this simple tuner and am
planning on studying ear training with a book/CD package used at
university music departments. The review on Amazon seemed good
enough for me.
| |
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