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learhy
Registered User
Posts: 6
(8/20/01 4:18:16 pm)
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POLL: Learning
curves? (and a personal insecurities)
Background:
After looking at one of the posts on here from a
recovering cellist, I decided I need to figure out where I stand in
comparison to other cellists with regard to how long it takes a
person to learn a specific piece of music.
Insecurity number
0: (an afterthought)
I'm not a performance major, namely because
I feel like I have missed so much, that I have almost no time to
catch up. I see cellists in my orchestra who are 16 years old,
playing 3 major concertos (well, to boot), and have been performing
since age 10. How can one even think of getting into a conservatory?
I've been offered scholarships at universities with little to no
reputation in music, but that's not what I'm looking
for.
Insecurity number one:
I'm 20 years old with 14 years
accumulated experience (I quit for 4 years when I was sixteen and
picked it back up when I was 18. I have an excellent teacher who has
really worked hard with me. But, I feel inadequate. I have a hard
time sight reading music during orchestra rehearsal (particularly
any fast runs or difficult rhythms). Although I do pick the music up
after a few rehearsals, I feel this puts me at a great disadvantage.
Insecurity number two:
I started the Saint-Saens cello
concerto approximately 3 or 4 months ago, and just completed the
first movement. Although I feel I've learned it thoroughly, this
just seems like it taken far too long to get where I am
at.
So, I guess what I'm looking for is anyone who has
had similar experience and might be willing to share it with a
messageboard full of strangers. Has anyone else felt this way? I'm
not totally discouraged, I just am so surrounded with younger talent
that sometimes I feel overwhelmed.
Edited by: learhy
at: 8/20/01 4:19:20 pm
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Ellen
G 
Registered
User
Posts: 858
(8/20/01 4:47:59
pm)
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|
Re: POLL:
Learning curves? (and a personal insecurities)
Until you have personally seen/heard the person(s) perform the
pieces they said they can play, don't be too critical of your own
playing.
You have entered THE SUBJECTIVE ZONE. There are
about a zillion elements that go into the playing of a piece
WELL.
I just "performed" a piece. Hee hee. I have heard other
students perform it. I have heard professionals perform it. Trust
me, we all played it, but....
Your remarks are most
appreciated. Should lead to a lively discussion. Ears hear different
things, expectations vary. Some are happy if all the notes are
there, even if the piece is lacking any emotion. Others will key
into the nuances of starting and stopping a note cleanly and
musically.
The fact that you think you have a ways to go,
rather than thinking you have already arrived, leads me to believe
you are on the right road. Fondly, Ellen
|
Cellospieler
Registered User
Posts: 69
(8/20/01 5:17:57 pm)
Reply
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Re: POLL:
Learning curves? (and a personal insecurities)
I agree with Ellen. Just because you feel you are behind, doesn't
make it so. I feel you would benefit from NOT comparing yourself to
others, but rather, set realistic goals for yourself, and make them
happen. Talk to your teacher about your goals, so you both know what
they are, and just be as disciplined as you can be.
Regarding the sightreading--ask your teacher to provide a
sightreading piece that you spend about 5-10 minutes on in every
lesson and you'll be surprised what you can accomplish. Also spend
time sight reading during your daily practice. I see too often that
students are merely lead by their teachers, and don't feel they
should voice their needs. Speak up and take control of your lessons.
You are the one that needs to chart your own course for the next
several years. Grab the helm and be in charge.
There have
been myriad discussions about people learning things quickly here,
and I know you feel you are pressed for time and all, but haste
makes waste. I know most jury panalists would rather hear a
beautifully played piece than a scratchy, choppy, disjointed "more
difficult" piece or concerto movement. So don't worry about "lost
time", there's nothing you can do about it now.
Find your
strengths and weaknesses and focus on them. You will find that you
have special gifts that no other person will have and you need to
focus on those things rather than the 3-4 months it took you to
learn the 1st movement of the Saints Saens.
If you have a
beautiful vibrato, choose pieces that will show it off. If your
sound is exemplary, choose a piece that amplifies it. But most of
all, realize your worth and then make it even better, because with
positive self-esteem and dogged discipline, you can do
it!
All the best!
CS
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Len
Thompson
Registered
User
Posts: 203
(8/20/01 5:37:27
pm)
Reply
|
Thanks for
sharing!
It is comments like these, and honesty like this, that keeps me
going. Knowing that so many things are common to us all has a way of
keeping me from feeling all alone in my travels. Thanks so
much!
Len
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Paul
Tseng ICS Staff 
Administrator
Posts: 1495
(8/20/01 5:37:43 pm)
Reply
 |
Re: POLL:
Learning curves? (and a personal insecurities)
I didn't quite get the math when you said
Quote:
(I quit for 4 years when I was sixteen and picked it back up when
I was 18.
Anyway, remember that your greatest competition is yourself.
That's what my first cello teacher used to tell me at the age of 15
when her prize student Alexis Pia Gerlach was only 11 and playing
circles around me (and others). You see, at that time, I'd only
taken lessons for 1 year and I had the aspirations of going to
Juilliard or Eastman.
If I'd spent too much time obsessing
over how I measured up to other cellists, I wouldn't have had enough
time (or energy) to work my butt off for all those conservatory
auditions (Eastman, MSM, Cleveland Institute, etc.) just 2 years
later.
Despite all that, it was truly by divine grace that I
happened to hook up with Scott Ballantyne just as I got into
college. He helped me solidify my technique (though at the first
lesson, he made me realize just how bad I was).
but it
wasn't until I was 30 years old that I found the greatest cello
teaching in my life through Vladimir Pantaleyev and Yosif
Feygelson.
The point is, 20 is still young and you don't have
to follow the paths of Ha Nah Chang. Everyone finds their own paths
in their own time.
Your number one concern should be to find
a great teacher who can help you reach all your cellistic goals (I
don't mean career goals, just the goals for how you want to play).
Having a career in music is a WHOLE other can of worms and a
discussion for another post (or board???)
Paul Tseng
My Website
Free Cello
Music!
|
ekifri
Registered User
Posts: 225
(8/20/01 5:47:49 pm)
Reply
|
Re: POLL:
Learning curves? (and a personal insecurities)
I like these questions....
I think that you have a great
temporal advantage over most of us on this board. If you were able
to quit for 4 years between the ages of 16 and 18, I'd like you to
teach me that trick (I'd quit my job for 4 years....) ok, jokes
aside.
This IS a huge subjective zone. The first item is that
we have different standards for saying that something is 'learned'.
The speed at which you learn new rep. is not the most important
thing- the depth is much more so.
You've probably got that well
in hand.
Especially with kids (10 year olds with promise) parents
and teachers can be pushing them very hard, and just shoving them
through repertoire as fast as they can swallow. Don't judge yourself
against others in this way. I've heard
players who can play
several concerti, but don't seem aware that they are playing
music.... The pace is NOT what's important.
I'm not sure what too
long would be to learn something thoroughly. Learn at your own pace
and to your own standards. If you'd had a deadline, no doubt
you
would have been able to perform the SS sooner, BUT, you have
probably put more into it, and gotten more out of it this
way.
I used to torture myself by assuming that i wasn't done
with a piece or ready to move on, until I could play it as well as
<insert name of ultimate cellist here>. I figured that if
'this' is my level, then that means that I shouldbe able to do it as
well, as musically etc as anyone. Of course that's a bunch
of
nonsense! You get what you can, and move on. Getting what you
can, though, means everything- notes, phrasing etc. As your
experience grows, you can go back to the earlier
p[ieces and find
that they have improved along with your
musicianship.
Sighreading- like most things improves with
practise. Sight read more, and you'll find it comes easier. I used
to do sightreading by playing along with a recording.
orchestra
stuff, and solo stuff alike. besides being useful- it's fun! and
Some people are just plain better at sightreading than others. also,
reading a score along with a recording, helps sightreading skills (
i think- coiuldn;t prove it though)
As for insecurity number
0- there are many good music programs besides conservatories.
you
should read the thread on the PPE board started by Xabur about what
teachers should tell their students. There are a lot of good points
made by both sides. I think it is important to know that
professional success is not
guaranteed by a performance degree.
But equally important is that if you doin't pursue it now, it will
be much harder ( not necessarily impossible) to return to
later.
If you want to be a performance major, pursue it. Audition
at suitable schools, and maybe even consider a double major.
But
don;'t judge yourslf- audition
and let the teachers decide
;-)
One other thing: Ellen is right.
(and the further you
progress, the longer the road ahead of you appears to be)
-eva
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DWThomas
Registered User
Posts: 394
(8/21/01 7:47:05 am)
Reply
|
Re: POLL:
Learning curves? (and a personal insecurities)
Hmm, thanks for drawing out all these insecurities. It's at least
some small comfort to know I'm not alone 
I
think Ellen expressed it very well. Learning to play music is a
complex business. I don't believe any two people will follow the
exact same path or achieve the exact same results.
I wish I
could be a little mouse and hear some of the people who have been
"taking lessons for 8 months and am working on the 5th Bach Suite,"
etc.
I know I'm up against aging, distractions of adult
responsibilities, and perhaps a general tendency toward wandering
focus over long periods, but I'm making forward progress and that's
all I really ask.
A wise acquaintance once commented that
"once we learn something, we take it for granted." We don't really
appreciate how far we've come at any given point. In music, that
argues for recording yourself periodically and going back and
listening to how you sounded last year if you think you're
stagnating. (Well, hopefully you'll be pleasantly surprised 
)
Probably my biggest disappointment at the moment is my
quality of sound. But, I can do all sorts of stuff with both left
and right hands that I couldn't do last year. And I gather from what
I've learned from many sources that one of the basics of sound
quality is being able to relax enough to be more fluid in motion.
I'm accepting that such fluidity can only come through lots of
playing and becoming comfortable enough with techniques to reduce
anxiety and tension. So I figure, hey, I'll get there. (A glass or
two of cabernet might help -- for the listeners so they won't
notice.)
So keep at it, celebrate the forward steps (pretend
you didn't notice the slips 
).
-Dave Who IS doing some work on the FIRST Bach Suite, but
wouldn't recommend you "buy my new CD."
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dwthomas_asylum/homepage.htm Edited
by: DWThomas
at: 8/21/01 11:40:29 am
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mcello
Registered User
Posts: 115
(8/21/01 7:55:40 am)
Reply
|
re: learning
curves
I'm not sure that I would worry about how long it takes me to learn
a piece, but rather, how well do I play this piece. I can play the
notes to a concerto in a few days or weeks, depending on the
difficulty. But usually, I don't feel like I'm really performing the
piece for months or even letting it mature over a couple of years. I
want to not only to learn the notes but have time to digest, put it
down, and then pick it up again. I feel that to truly perform well
it takes time! You have to go at your own pace. Don't always be
comparing yourself to others. Make your own performance goals, not
what others can do, etc.
|
Andrew
Victor
Registered
User
Posts: 385
(8/21/01 9:46:14
am)
Reply
|
Forces of
Nature!
Instead of comparing yourself with other cellists. How about you
considering charging into the line of the Green Bay Packers? Or how
about shooting baskets against the NY Knicks? Or golf against Tiger
Woods?
Got my point? We each have a learning curve that is
based on the top of our potential. There are limits to what each of
us can do, but I think it is unlikely that we ever actually find
what they are - we just find what we think they are.
Since
you are not a performance major, the only challenges you face in
that area are those you set yourself.
I learned to sightread
pretty well - but at a price; I did not work on any serious works
very seriously. My attitude was - if I can sightread it fairly to
get to the end, then I can work on it and make it better. Only years
later did I learn that I could also develop music way beyond my
sightreading level. But at least "sightreading" my way through a
number of violin concertos helped develop that skill in my
teens.
Now approaching age 67, my violin skills are atrophing
at a rate I can detect - but my cello skills seem to be improving
even faster. Clearly I never did reach the level of my celloistic
incompetence when I was younger and still have a way to go. If I had
practiced harder and smarter I would have got there sooner, no
doubt. But, then, I probably would have been disappointed sooner
too.
I have always marveled at better players - especially
those at a level beyond what seems possible to me - whether they be
basketball players who can fly through the air, golfers who can
parse an angle of 0.02 degree, or miraculous violinists and
cellists. They inspire me to become the best I can be and to try to
play what they do - and enjoy it. I can detect such players within a
few seconds - just by the quality of sound they make - not, however,
by what they say.
Andy
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sbwaters
Registered User
Posts: 13
(8/21/01 3:46:47 pm)
Reply
|
Re: Forces of
Nature!
Reminds me of Thomas More's comment in a "A Man for All Seasons":
(Paraphrasing) God made the animals for their grace and the plants
for their beauty. But man he made to serve him wittily in the tangle
of his mind, and, should he find himself in circumstances from which
he cannot extricate himself, he can only stand to his tackle as best
he can - if he has the spittle for it. And no doubt it pleases God
to see splendor where he only sought complexity.
Making the
most of one's ability to make music regularly tests the limits of
body and mind.
Each of us can claim splendor:
* When we
harness our minds into focus for practice.
* When we rejoice in
little improvements.
* When we enjoy the sounds of music we've
created.
* When we have achieved some degree of peace from
playing, and
* When we resolve gather ourselves anew to practice
again next time.
regards/sbw
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CelloBass
Registered User
Posts: 60
(8/21/01 6:25:14 pm)
Reply
|
Re:
Comparing...
Andrew,
just a few words about comparing. There is one thing
that helps me a lot when I try to improve my playing. It is
comparing myself with... myself. I had a Digital Audio Tape player
anyway, and one day I bought a cheap microphone. I was shocked when
I noticed that when I played it sounded completely different than I
thought it would. Later I bought good equipment, almost on
professional level. Listening to my tapes I heard that while I
played I was so busy with playing that I didn't notice many bad
habits. For example, I always thought that a slow vibrato sounds
good in most cases. Listening to the tapes I realized that it often
sounded just boring, somehow mechanically. And I realized that I
always did a crescendo on up-bows, short breaks on string changes...
all those little things I didn't realize when I played. When I
played I was convinced that it was OK. What I do is: I tape myself
when I practise. Then I wait for at least one hour to get some
distance. Then I listen to the tape and try to imagine that I listen
to anybody else, to any other player, but not to myself. And when I
listen to the tape I ask myself what I like and what I dislike. And
that is what I focus on during my next session. For example, when I
heard my slow vibrato, I took a metronome to figure out what tempo
would sound nice. Next time I played the piece together with the
metronome to synchronize the vibrato. While I played, the vibrato
seemed much too fast to me, just shaky. But when I listened to the
tape it was exactly what I wanted. Now I know that in the higher
registers I have to force myself to do a faster vibrato. My
experience is that while you play you don't hear how you really
sound, but you hear how you would like to sound. Therefore I think
before you start comparing yourself with other players, you have to
find out how you really play. There are many players who have been
playing for years but still don't know how it really sounds when
they play... one hour listening to your own tapes can cure more than
10 hours with your best teacher. But when you do so the first time,
make sure that you are sitting relaxed, don't be easily depressed
and don't sell your cello after that! A teacher
has to explain each detail with words, which is very difficult
sometimes. A tape speaks by itself. Hopefully this statement was not
too provocative, I don't want all teachers being replaced by tapes. The tape
just shows you that you are doing something wrong, but it can't
explain how to cure the problem.
Horst
|
Andrew
Victor
Registered
User
Posts: 387
(8/22/01 9:55:12
am)
Reply
|
Re:
Comparing...
Horst,
Wise words indeed.
Andy
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learhy
Registered User
Posts: 10
(8/29/01 1:21:37 pm)
Reply
|
Re: POLL:
Learning curves? (and a personal insecurities)
Thanks everyone for your words of wisdom- I have been working on my
sightreading for quite a while and I do see improvements, it's just
sooo darn slow! Anyway, about the progress...lol, I have a
confession.. I just started the second movement of the Saint-Saens
and now I'm almost done with it.. My teacher thinks that the first
movement took so long because I was getting a feel for the piece and
now that I'm on the second, I feel more at home. Anyway, it was nice
to hear you all respond. It did make me feel better... - school
starts in a few days and I think all this advice will translate will
into anything I study, so I'm going to take a good long look at
this...
oh, if you are wondering how one quits for 4 years in
the span of 2, then it's really rather simple...make an error on the
keyboard.
Thanks,
Dan
Edited by: learhy
at: 8/29/01 1:23:35
pm
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