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Oz1783
Registered User
Posts: 5
(9/7/01 12:32:51 am)
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bow grips and
problems thereof
hey! i am in need of some serious help. i am having a lot of
difficulty with my right hand; no matter how hard i try (or try not
to try), i cannot seem to get rid of the tension in my right hand.
my bow grip itself is off as well, it has become more of a bow
“clutch”. often i am pressing so hard with my thumb that it has a
large dent in it from the frog that stays there for quite a while,
as well as having “engraved” a spot on the underside of my bow from
the side of my thumbnail, despite the fact that i have chewed off
half of it (i know, im trying to quit, its just that i always forget
until its too late! lol). and the worst part of the matter is that
it is noticeably straining my sound. my teacher has been after me to
play with less force; i am almost certain that this is because my
former teacher always told me to “play louder! LOUDER!!” and to push
very hard with the thumb. surprise, surprise… funny how I never
could do it in my lessons with her! part of this could be my cello,
it is kind of quiet and my bow is not very good either. but most and
possibly all of it is me. it is very frustrating and painful, and i
have been practising less and less, and when i do practise, it is no
longer enjoyable, it is a chore because of the awful, choked sound
it produces. i am most worried about this because our local youth
symphony will be starting up very soon (monday! yikes!), and i
almost always find myself playing with undue force to try to match
the other cellists’ sound. whew! didn’t mean to write a book!
anywho, i was wondering if any of you have/have had the same problem
and how you are working/worked through it. my teacher told me that
he is better at helping his students with problems he himself had,
but because he never had any problems with his bow grip, he is
having difficulties in helping me to correct mine. any help you all
can give is very, very much appreciated!
maggie
ps-
has anyone ever heard of the corigliano quartet?
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sarah
schenkman
Registered
User
Posts: 481
(9/7/01 8:57:07
am)
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Re: bow grips
and problems thereof
Maggie - It is possible that the instruments are at least part of
the problem. Can you try out - maybe play on someone else's to see
if it's any different? Other than that I would suggest holding the
bow in your left hand and placing your right hand on the bow in
correct position and start playing. As soon as you feel the tension
in your hand stop playing, shake out the hand, relax it and then
place it on the bow again. Try to be conscious in your playing of
when it starts to tense up and stop playing and relax it - do this
over and over. Also, instead of pressing to get sound pick a place
to focus on far from where you are sitting and think of playing to
that place, projecting rather than forcing. Don't know if that makes
sense. Good luck.
Sarah
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bridge
Registered
User
Posts: 181
(9/7/01 9:17:02
am)
Reply
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Re: bow grips
and problems thereof
A book was mentioned recently here as being dry and boring. But it
illuminated some of the counterintuitive mechanics of playing the
cello.
To play loud, you relax. The wait of your arm pushes
into the strongs as hard as you would ever need.
To play soft
creates more tension, because you have to support more of the weight
of your arm.
Experiment with it.
P.S. My experience
level is 2.5 years . . . so keep this in mind. But I think this is
sound advice.
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Josephinethecellist
Registered User
Posts: 3
(9/7/01 9:53:30 am)
Reply
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Re: bow grips
and problems thereof
I have problems with tenseness, too, and it is frustrating. My
teacher often tells me to relax and it is definitely hard to make
the whole playing experience a conscious event. Personally, I tense
my left hand more and am working on that. My teacher tells me not to
press the bow into the string for a louder sound, but to use more
bow and project -and to grab that string confidently but smoothly at
the beginning of the sound. Reminding myself of this does help my
bowing. (I, too, have erroneously associated louder with more bow
pressure.)
Another suggestion is one I got from this chat for
working on speed. Try playing softer. When I do this, my body
automatically relaxes a bit. It might help you to recapture a more
correct bowing technique.
Also, although it isn't very
glamorous, long open bows or scales with a Slow bow -maybe with the
metronome- have really helped me feel more confident with my bow
technique. I can't tell you what I do differently now. I do know
that my sound has improved and my bowing technique is satisfactory
to my teacher. There is something about building up hours playing
scales with long, slow bows. It has helped me in numerous ways,
especially intonation and confidence. No substitute, I'm afraid. I
do this everyday to warm up and have been extending the time spent
on it gradually. What used to be laborious and unpleasant has turned
into a welcome, relaxing part of my practice. Usually, at
least.
This next may be imperfect advice, but try focusing on
a full, sweet sound and not worry about the specifics of your hand
position. Let your ear determine your technique a bit. Worry not
about thumb and nail indents -just don't hurt yourself.
And
give yourself time. There's no easy fix. I'm trying to do the same
for myself. Hope this helps. Good luck!
Jo
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mycatmarti
Registered User
Posts: 76
(9/7/01 10:38:49 am)
Reply
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bow grip
I've seen some cellists using a thick piece of rubber tubing around
the padded part of the bow to help alleviate hand tension. Perhaps a
luthier or your teacher could help you out with that.
Mia
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CelloBass
Registered User
Posts: 87
(9/7/01 10:53:45 am)
Reply
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Re: bow grips
and problems thereof
Maggie,
I don't know if this is helpful, but I had the same
problems and I found a solution, so I thought I should tell you -
not knowing if it works for you. When I started to play the cello I
kept all fingers of my bow hand totally relaxed, especially fingers
1 to 4. After playing for a while, I always realized that my thumb
got more and more tense and pressed more and more. After some
minutes it hurt so much that I couldn't play anymore and had to
relax my thumb. I tried to analyze what happens. I kept all fingers
relaxed, but holding the bow and playing you need to apply force.
You have to transmit the weight of your arm to the bow, at least a
part of it, and this doesn't work without gripping the bow. But how
can you grip when your fingers 1-4 are totally relaxed? My thumb
tried to play this role, automatically. I concentrated on keeping my
fingers and my bow hand relaxed, so my thumb had to press the bow
against my hand to get a grip firm enough to hold the bow and to
apply some force. Then I changed my bow grip that way that the tip
of my 2nd finger and the tip of my thumb touched each other slightly
in front of the frog, at its rounded edge. And I concentrated on the
fact that as soon as I feel that my thumb and my second finger touch
slightly, I will never loose the bow. Thumb and second finger don't
have to press, they only have to touch each other, building a ring.
Suddenly my whole bow hand and my thumb relaxed. I could draw the
bow without pressing any finger, the bow played by its own weight,
drawn by the finger2-thumb-ring. And I used the fingers 1, 3 and 4
to balance the bow and to apply weight to the stick. The thumb could
now remain relaxed, it only had to touch the second finger, that was
all. To verify that I changed my bow grip forth and back. When my
thumb touched the frog only, it got tense and pressed the frog. When
I felt my second finger touching my thumb's tip, the thumb remained
relaxed. This is somehow logical, because against what should your
thumb press when it ends at your second finger? Your thumb could
only press against your second finger, but you will realize that at
once. One problem of a tense thumb is that you realize it late, when
it hurts. When your thumb touches your second finger, you will
realize at once when the thumb only begins to get tense, and you can
go back to relaxed operation before it hurts. You could give it a
try. And if you already hold your bow that way, you could try to
concentrate on the fact that thumb and second finger only have to
touch each other to hold and draw the bow. I don't know if my way to
hold the bow is against all cellistic rules and laws, but it works
for me. It took about two weeks to get used to.
Horst
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Xabur1342
Registered User
Posts: 28
(9/7/01 11:13:27 am)
Reply
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re: bow grips
and problems thereof
If you play the cello correctly you should never, ever, feel any
pain in the thumb. I can practice for many hours and never
experience any pain. But there was a time when I did have pain in
the thumb from tension. I'm just saying that this can be
solved.
One thing that might help is realizing that you don't
really need to hold the bow very much at the frog but you do need to
hold it fairly tightly at the tip. The key is alternating relaxation
and firmness. Every time you go to the frog, RELAX your hold. The
pain most likely comes from the fact that you are holding the bow
tightly all the time. A firmer hold at the tip of the bow is ok as
long as you immediately relax this hold when you get back to the
frog. Also when you go to the tip your fingers including the thumb
can straighten a bit and when you come to the frog they can curl a
bit more. Flexibility like that during the bowing motion also helps.
Good luck and I am sure you will work this out.
Xabur
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dennisw
Registered User
Posts: 250
(9/7/01 5:50:03 pm)
Reply
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Re: bow grips
and problems thereof
Many of the answers to your problem say the obvious: relax your
grip. Good advice, but that's easier said than done. It sounds to me
as if your right hand needs strengthening.
You don't need
stronger muscles that support a grip force, so no isometrics or grip
squeezers will do the trick. These are subtle muscles that need to
be strong enough to lift the bow yet remain relaxed at the same
time. These muscles are in your forearm, not in your
hand.
Sit away from the cello for the moment. Using your left
hand, pick up the bow at the tip and cradle it between your thumb
& index finger. Let it swing like a pendulum. Now, using the
right hand, grip the bow as you normally do, bringing the bow so the
hair &stick are horizontal to the floor.
One good method
to determine your finger placement on the bow is to shake the right
hand loose, let it dangle, then insert the frog under your hand as
it relaxes in that natural position.
Now the exercise: using
your right hand lift then lower the frog by alternately flexing then
straightening the fingers of your right hand. Don't worry about
dropping the bow, it'll swing from the left hand. Don't forget, your
thumb must flex along with the rest of your fingers. If your fingers
start turning white, let go of the bow and start over
again.
Do this every day for 5 mins. before you start
practicing. Over time it will work wonders for your
bow-hand.
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ashley
Registered User
Posts: 63
(9/7/01 11:56:03 pm)
Reply
|
Re: re: bow
grips and problems thereof
Great post Xabur! Thanks alot. That's good stuff to keep in mind. 
Thanks.
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mvotapek
Registered User
Posts: 15
(9/8/01 12:34:42 am)
Reply
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Re: bow HOLDS!!!
and problems thereof
I really was trying to stay out of this thread, as the bow HOLD (it
hurts to hear it called a bow GRIP) is an awfully huge topic to try
to diagnose and advise upon w/out actually seeing the player, but
frankly i'm diving in because some of the thread is scaring
me...i'll try to be very very short w/ my input.
The hand
does not hold the bow up (to counter gravity.) The string does this.
At the tip, the string gets help from the cellist's back and
shoulder to keep the bow from careening down to the ground. The
weight of the arm (along with friction and motion) is what causes
sound, loud sound. The hand has nothing to do with these things. It
is passive, with no need to contract muscles...unless you have the
frog slathered in baby oil or have your thumb on TOP of the bow or
something odd. The very small hand muscle contractions required to
make the hand move flexibly, to adjust to the sound requirements of
the string, and to fine tune the results of the large muscle motions
(back, shoulder, arm)...these are what causes one's thumb and hand
to squeeze and tire. More specifically, keeping those muscles
contracted (tight) CONSTANTLY is what is tiring. No matter how
strong they are, if they stay contracted, they will tire quickly.
(Picture a body builder holding his arms up at shoulder level and
not moving for 5 minutes...ouch.)
Unfortunately, one doesn't
have the musical luxury of shaking out the hand to relax these tiny
muscles as often as would be needed to stay comfy and fully
responsive, which in severe cases can be about every nanosecond.
This is too long already, and i haven't offered any
solutions. Try this: put the bow on the string somewhere comfy, like
near the frog on the g-string. Feel what it feels like to feel
relaxed. Put the bow in other places and aim to feel the same
feeling. Then (this may take long-term patience) try to move the bow
from one of the places to the other, starting relaxed and ending
relaxed, never mind about in between...then do this (relaxing from
time to time or place to place) in scales, eventually connecting
place to place to place without stopping, and eventually real
repetoire (hopefully something easy at first).
Point being
that the key to "relaxing" is in allowing contracted muscles, big
and small, to UN-contract...often. The easiest way to do this is to
stop, but one needs to practice this relaxing little by little while
STILL playing...first in the easiest comfiest places, then in the
middle of long notes, then on syncopations, ties, impact notes, etc
etc etc until there is a constant continuum of muscles contracting
and muscles relaxing.
good luck and patience with this, a
very common physical problem for all levels of cellists
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quadu
Registered User
Posts: 3
(9/8/01 1:09:04 am)
Reply
|
Re: re: bow
grips and problems thereof
There's been a lot of good advice here already. I have a
few
more analogies to think about. One is to never clutch
the bow -
see if you can find a baby and see how a s/he grabs
your finger.
A baby's grip very relaxed and flexible, but at the same time, it is
very difficult to dislodge (I got this
from Irene Sharp). Try to
emulate the baby grip with your
bow hand. Also, the power comes
from your back, not your
biceps, and any tension in your arm can
cut off the flow of
energy. (That sounds really New Age, doesn't
it? Sorry  )
As
has been pointed out, your arm is more than heavy enough
to
provide the weight needed to get a big sound. Power
coming from
your back is one of the things Margaret Rowell
used to talk
about. Maybe Nick Anderson can go on in more
depth on her
philosophies.
Another thing to think about is trying to find the
"core"
in the sound. It may not necessarily be louder, but a
very
focused sound projects much better.
As for the rubber
tubing, I find it does help me not to
worry about holding the
bow and lets me relax my right hand.
You can sometimes find it in
medical supply stores as
surgical tubing or you can order it
from McMaster-Carr.
Usually, the surgical grade stuff comes in
beige, but you
can order black tubing from McMaster-Carr
(www.mcmaster.com)
if you want to be a little less
obtrusive.
And lastly, sometimes people keep screaming "louder,
louder" when all they want is for you to look like
you're
working hard. This is
more likely to occur in orchestra.
Well, I hope some of this is
useful to you, Maggie.
Good luck!
-Warren
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Nicholas
Anderson
Registered
User
Posts: 120
(9/8/01 2:19:35
am)
Reply
|
Re: re: bow
grips and problems thereof
Dear Warren,
Thanks for thinking of me. Indeed, Margaret had
extremely effective, original and far-reaching ways of addressing
this exact problem of tension in the bow-hand and thumb, and the
most subtle fine-points of holding the bow - which I learned a few
things about in my 24 years of close work with her. However, I think
this thread is perhaps not the ideal opportunity for getting into
something of that nature. You can be sure that I'll be watching like
a hawk for the right moment!
-Nick
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Andrew
Victor
Registered
User
Posts: 401
(9/8/01 11:15:31
am)
Reply
|
Re: bow "holds"
and problems thereof (bow gripes!)
The problem could indeed be most strongly related to the "tools"
you use. I rarely (only a few times annually) played the cello
between 1965, when I guarded a friend's superb cello and bow, while
he spent the summer in Europe - and 2000 when I improved my own
equipment up to a level where the "instructions" worked for it. His
cello and what I could do with it ruined me for my own
tools.
I would suggest you go to a dealer and try the best
bows and cellos they will let you use in there and see how different
everything is. Also take your own equipment so you can try your bow
on their cellos and their bows on yours.
If you learn it is
your equipment that is causing the problems - perhaps you can make
an improving step from there.
A few other tricks to
try:
1) Adjust the tension in your bow hair. If the sound
gets better and stronger as you loosen the bow, you may have a bow
with an insufficient amount of hair. If making the bow much tighter
helps the sound (be sure not to break the bow over-tightening it) -
you may have too much hair in the bow - a situation that can be
remedied by removing some (evenly across the ribbon).
2) Are
your strings the best to use on your instrument. Sometimes weak G
and C strings are helped by switching to tungsten-wound strings.
Different A and D strings definitely have different
character.
3) For greater loudness, play as close to the
bridge as you can get.
4) Bowing straight usually means
actually having to raise the right hand some, because a cello angled
to the left of your head can not be bowed "straight" with the bow
parallel to the ground. "Straight" bowing gives more sound
(generally).
5) Sometimes adjustment or new setup of the
bridge and soundpost can work wonders for a cello. Sometimes a
higher or lower saddle can help the sound quality.
6)
Replacement of a conventional tailpiece with separate added fine
tuners by a light-weight one-piece tailpiece with built-in tuners
can really help the sound - it works on many cellos. The new
carbon-fiber endpins also work wonders with tone and
reponsiveness.
7) Finally, you do have to work within the
limits of your cello's own sound. If it's not loud then it won't
play loud and should not be forced. If its upper harmonics are
limited - it won't project. But such a cello may have virtues in
chamber music, if you can hear it yourself when you play. Sometimes
the sound of a better-projecting cello can so mingle with the higher
instruments in an ensemble that the cellist has trouble
distinguishing his own sound at times and tends to play to
loud.
These are all possiblilities in the problem you are
attributing to "bow grip." Sometimes I think we should call them
"bow gripes!" I think many cellists areforced into "right hand
cramps" by teachers who insist on a bent thumb. Personally I have
not found that a bent thumb on a cello bow does anything but strain
the right wrist when one attempts to play near the frog. There are
times when a bent thumb works to assist one's flexibility - and then
it should be used.
Andy
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Oz1783
Registered User
Posts: 7
(9/8/01 11:05:45 pm)
Reply
|
bow holds (i
stand corrected- those darn semantics again!)
would you believe it, but my teacher said the same thing! (about
grip versus hold, &c.) anywho... thanks so much everyone for
your help. although it may be too early to tell, i have put into
practise many of the things you all have suggested. practised five
hours yesterday... yikes! (cumulative, of course  ) also,
my teacher knows of a very, very nice cello i may be able to loan
indefinately, even though it is out of our prices range... oh well.
on first try, it was a hundred times easier to play... actual
noticeable dynamic contrast! what a change from my cheapie student
cello- this should definately help out. painless fortissimos!!  and,
finally, on the bow thingers (what are they called again? lol ), my
former teachers had all of her students using them, myself included.
although, she used much less expensive ones than the fancy $8
catalouge ones... those little rubber pencil holders work perfectly,
and cost around $0.40 (you can even cut them in half and save even
more money! ). they
certainly wont last more than a few months, even less if you are
like me, but they work very well while they last. (not to mention
the fun colours you can pick out!!
well i
think that is it... thanks again everyone!
maggie
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Victor
Sazer
Registered
User
Posts: 105
(9/10/01 1:46:53
pm)
Reply
|
bow grips and
problems thereof
It is unlikely that you can relieve the tension in your bow hold by
changing your bow hold alone; neither can you relieve it by trying
to “relax”. The way you hold the bow has to do with what you are
trying to do with it. It is a tool for a specific purpose. You don’t
hold a hammer, a screwdriver or a pair of pliers the same way
because each has a different function.
If you try to produce
your sound by pressing downward, you will hold your bow one way. If
you try to use your arm or body weight and/or any other mechanism
for playing, you will try to adjust your bow hold to achieve your
aim.
Of course, holding your bow in a free and balanced way
is essential, but in my opinion, the first place to start is to
examine the way your body is aligned and the way you sit. The goal
is to have your entire body balanced and mobile. If your body is
poorly balanced, you will be tense before you even begin to play.
(You might check out home.earthlink.net/~vsazer/seating.html
for some thoughts on healthful sitting.)
You can avoid
unneeded tension, by pulling your bow instead of pressing. When you
press, you inevitably create tension. Your joints tend to jam up and
opposing muscle groups contract at the same time. Pulling does not
have the same negative effects.
You can avoid pressing by
guiding your bow slightly around the string at the very beginning of
each stroke; so that you play a bit on the side of the string rather
then on the top of its circumference. Your bow will circle
counterclockwise on your down bow and clockwise on your up bow. Your
down bows will be played a bit on the high side of the string and up
bows a bit on the low side. This is similar to playing pizz. You
normally start a first finger pizz on the high side and a thumb pizz
on the low side of the string.
This allows you to pull
rather than press or depend on arm or body weight for tone
production. Having contact with the opposite side of the string from
the direction of your bow stroke gives you a point from which to
pull.
Playing this way not only reduces tension, but also
equalizes the feel of your bowing. You feel the same in any part of
the bow so there is no need to readjust weight or
pressure.
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