| Author |
Subject |
echeng
Registered User
(5/3/01 3:56:17 am)
Reply |
Horrible email from a dealer...
Hello all! I'm new to these forums.
Unfortunately, my first post is a depressing one.
Last year
I was involved in a search for a new cello. I found the search to be
an interesting diversion from my "normal" life and started
chronicling the experience online. It can be found at:
www.echeng.com/music/cellosearch/
Anyway, I happened to mention a dealer (?) named "Andrew
Shaw" in the web site, which led to the following email from him
more than a year after I made a purchase decision.
Did I do
write something offensive on my site? I really can't figure this one
out. Anyone out there know him? Is he like this in
person?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Schaw"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 3:01 PM
Dear
Eric,
I was recently informed that my name showed up on your
internet site. So, as
a surprise to me I decided to look you up
to see what this is all about. I
have to say with that after
reading all of the commentaries on your site
that I am not
amused. What you are is a cancer to all that is wrong in
the
business of musical instruments. You have no intention at all
of purchasing
a cello or any other musical instrument. Your only
objective is to go search
out all of the great works that are
available and to critic them. You have
no right to go around to
all of the major dealers, masquerading as a
qualified purchaser
of a fine and rare work of art. You have no idea what
these great
works are all about and certainly you cannot perform on one.
You
will sound the same on a cheap $50.00 student instrument as
1,000,000
instrument, because you do not have the talent or the
ability. Your should
be prevented from even touching one of these
instruments because if you
attempt to play one of the treasures
of our time, it will be knocked out of
adjustment by your
inability to produce a even reasonable sound. These
makers must
turn over in their graves every time you even consider
playing
one of their art works. When you touch an instrument, it
doesn't matter who
made or where it origins are from because it
will always sound the
same,(like @#%$). You are not qualified to
handle one of these great works
of art except to those who are
trying to take your money which I hear you
don't even have. If
you ever attempt to contact me or if I found out that
you were
interested in any rare and great works of art that I have
anything
to do with, I will make sure that you never get to see
them. I repeat you
are a cancer because all you are interested in
is in destroying the
reputation of what ever goes into your
hands. It is also dangerous for you
to play any one of these
works because after you attempt to play it will
need attention so
that it can recover from your touch. It is clear to me
that you
are out of control and way out of your league and absolutely
have
no right or authority to make any claims of expertise
concerning sound or
anything else whatsoever. What is very
obvious from your internet site is
that you are an egotistical
SOB who really thinks very highly of himself for
whatever reason.
Please, do us all a favor and practice that martial art
form from
Japan called SEPPUKU.
Good riddance,
Andrew
Schaw
|
Martine
M 
Registered
User
(5/3/01 6:00:59 am)
Reply |
:-(
Hi Echeng,
I can't help you with
this problem, but I just wanted to say that you should ignore such
mails. I've received a lot of them too (I sometimes work as a model
and people seem to like mailing me that I'm far too ugly for
modelling etc.) and I know how horrible it can be. But remember :
those things are more about the persons sending them as they are
about you !! 
Good
luck and best wishes,
Martine.
|
George
Registered User
(5/3/01 8:41:32 am)
Reply |
Re:
Horrible email from a dealer...
I myself was searching for a cello
last year, and I think that your website could have been very
helpful to me. Too bad I didn't have it at the time.
I can't
imagine what kind of person Andrew Shaw must be to have written
that. What a complete @#%$!
Thanks for letting me know to
avoid his shop in the future.
George
|
mycatmarti
Registered User
(5/3/01 11:58:34 am)
Reply |
nasty
e-mail
I guess that this Andrew Shaw guy
doesn't realize that his attitude can travel far in this world of
e-mail and bulletin boards. I wonder if he ever sells instruments,
of if he just pisses everyone off.
Mia
|
Paul
Tseng ICS Staff 
Administrator
(5/3/01 12:14:22 pm)
Reply
 |
Re:
Horrible email from a dealer...
Hi Eric and welcome to cello
chat!
That is a truly horrible email and I keep wondering if
it is some kind of joke from someone who happens to have the same
name.
It's too bad this person is so hostile. That's not wise
because one never knows how far such actions will reach. If this is
indeed an email from the dealer, he is destroying his own
credibility. He can not make such judgments about your playing if
he's not heard you play.
It's hard to take such folly
seriously, though, Eric.
Anyway, it's good to hear from you.
I met your mother and Felix Fan's parents a while back at his
concert at the Museum of Modern Art in SD. I recently gave a concert
at the TACC too and I think your mom was there too.
I hope
all is well with you and that you will keep in touch with us.
Your cello serach website is great. I see nothing wrong with
going around trying out cellos and reviewing them. This is done all
the time and is good for everyone involved except "dealers" who have
something to hide...hmmmmm.....
BTW, did you reply to
that nasty email? I wouldn't bother.... He's not worth it.
Paul Tseng
My Website
Alexander's website
Free Cello Music!
|
echeng
Registered User
(5/3/01 1:04:49 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Horrible email from a dealer...
Hey, Paul -
I heard about
your concert! I was thinking of getting back to SD for it, but
timing didn't work out. I'm glad you're getting into the SD scene,
though.
As
for this email from Andrew Shaw...
One person I sent it to
said that I was doing an "internet smear" campaign, but I don't see
it that way. Email is public. If someone writes something that nasty
to ANYONE, public posting is fair game.
Another thing -- he
can certainly make judgements about my playing if he wants. I don't
really care about that... but how is it related to purchasing an
instrument? Many fine instruments sit languishing in attics,
museums, or dealers' shops.
I guess it's not even worth
debating.
Edited by: echeng
at: 5/3/01 1:04:49 pm
|
SW
Registered
User
(5/3/01 1:23:14 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Horrible email from a dealer...
This is a communication that appears
on your web site.
Gofriller (NY), June 19, 2000
"I
also realize that your summer is pretty full but I wanted
to let
you know we can get a VERY nice Gofriller. I have
a dealer in New
York that can pick it up on Wednesday of
this week. Are you
interested in seeing it as you mentioned
you are particularly
interested in this maker? This one was
owned by Emanual Feuerman
(spelling??) and the cello
has Piatta Gorski [sic] involved
somehow. We don't have
documentation stating as such just yet but
it may come
available. The cello has a Wurlitzer Cert, Hill Cert,
and a
Moennig cert. The cello has a Deconet scroll and
was
enlarged by the Hill's. The condition is supposed to
be
very very good (much better than the Amati) We have
not
seen it yet but it's reputation precedes it as a great
cello.
We don't have all the numbers worked out yet but this
will
probably be priced at xxx. One recently sold in Europe
for
xxx." - Tim Herman
Dealer in NY is Andy Shaw.
I
don't excuse the rather crude e-mail form Mr. Shaw, however, are you
on the market for such a pricey instrument? It appears that you have
led dealers to believe you are. While the response was rude, I
certainly understand how Shaw would be ticked. I found the fine
dealers in NYC to be polite, friendly, and accomodating, however,
they never offered to show instruments out of our price range.
Actually, that's not totally true. We were shown instruments at the
next level or two up, but never anything untouchable. Machold once
pointed out Strads from a distance that were lined up in an open
vault, but that's about as close as we got. My impression is that
you misrepresented your intentions (and again, I do not approve of
the reaction). Such misrepresentation is neither an honorable nor
admirable thing to do.
As an aside...who is Andrew Shaw. I don't
claim to know that many dealers, but in cello shopping I thought we
scoured the city. The name is not familiar.
|
cellofreak2000
Registered
User
(5/3/01 2:58:36 pm)
Reply |
nasty
e-mail
Hi Eric!
I must confess,that your
post gave some conflicting impressions. First of all, I do
absolutely NOT excuse this e-mailīs style ! But after checking your
website and reading your cello-search story I wonder what your
intentions are to give these informations to the public? Do you want
to know everybody, that buying a Strad, Goffriller, Amati, Ruggieri
a.s.o.for you is just like buying a new car or computer(speaking of
financial abilities...)Have you ever thought about the fact, that
buying an instrument of this category is far beyond the dreams of
lots and lots of professional cellists ? ( as I understand you donīt
make your living with cello-playing...)I think you must understand,
that stories like this must annoy lots of musicians, who have to
realize, that most of the finest instruments on the world are sold
to non-professionals, collectors and others, just because they have
the money, which even high-class soloists donīt have. Do you think
it makes sense, that a couple of the finest Strad - instruments are
in safes of some japanese businesmen and are not played by the
leading soloists of our time?? The famous painting "Sunflowers" by
van Gogh is in the Sony Central building in Tokio, not in a
gallery......
...to be honest: some of your descriptions of the
instruments involved DO sound pretty conceited for a 25 year old
hobby-cellist ("Starkers Gofrillerīs G-string sucks...)Well, let me
quote Starker (my favourite thing on this board, I confess): Starker
was told after a concert: "Your cello sounds so fantastic!" He
picked it up, looked at it, frowned, moved his head towards the
instrument and replied:"I dont hear anything"
Anyway, Eric, think
about it, and let me express again, that this e-mail definetively is
not NOT the right way to argue about this.
All the
best,
Mathias
|
G
M Stucka
Registered User
(5/3/01 6:20:15 pm)
Reply |
S.
Balderston says that this letter is VERY ANDY!!
(Steve says he knows this
guy.)
|
Paul
Tseng ICS Staff
Administrator
(5/3/01 6:21:20 pm)
Reply
|
Re:
nasty e-mail
Matthais,
I've also heard
that Starker's old Gofriller was dying. Apparently Virizlay played
it for a recording of one of the Stravinsky Suites (Firebird, if I
recall correctly) with David Zinman who allegedly insisted that he
play the solo on a different instrument since the sound was not
coming through. Just because it's a Gofriller doesn't mean that it
has to sound good. Some of these instruments are nearly 3 centuries
old and just not alive enough to play.
Hmmm....interesting
story about Starker...I guess that's his way of saying, "the cello
doesn't play itself..It's ME that sounds great!"
Paul Tseng
My Website
Alexander's website
Free Cello Music!
|
echeng
Registered User
(5/3/01 8:36:17 pm)
Reply |
Re:
nasty e-mail
Good point, Mathias. Your post is
much more constructive than Andrew's email was.
I guess I
hadn't thought it about it that way, since I only have a few
professional musician friends -- most of them have managed to get
good instruments in one manner or another (from foundations, or
saving up a long time ago, etc.).
I was on the market for a
long time, but in the end, I bought a new (less expensive)
instrument from Will Whedbee, which I like a lot. I'm really not
sure what my cello site conveys to others -- I was very honest in my
descriptions, and was quite serious about potentially purchasing an
instrument. I wasn't just playing around. Who has time for that? I
was on the market for investment reasons (the only investment that
has the HUGE PERK of letting you play an amazing instrument like
that). Plus, it would have outperformed the NASDAQ by a fair amount.
.
As for sounding conceited for a 25-year old -- if I had
been 50, would that have made a difference? Many of the instruments
had their value wrapped up in fancy certificates and being antiques,
rather than playability and sound. I am qualified to determine what
I like in an instrument, and in the end, I was on the market for an
instrument for me, and not the collective body of professional
musicians out there.
I wrote all the stuff on my site up
because I discovered that it was not a pleasant experience. I was
NOT treated well by a good number of dealers out there, which pissed
me off. In fact, I'm sure there are dealers out there who are upset
that I didn't end up purchasing something, or who are pissed that a
25-year old "hobby-cellist" who was unwilling to suck up to them was
even in the market for something like that (like Rene
Morel).
This brings up another question. Where *should* these
instruments belong? The one I was most interested in was being
marketed to me as being "overplayed" -- meaning that the current
owners wanted it in an environment less stressful for it (not
touring around). In my opinion (which I came to eventually), a
museum was better suited for its presentation and beauty than my own
hands were, so I didn't but it.
Honestly, all of this leaves
a bad taste in my mouth. It sucks.
Edited by: echeng
at: 5/3/01 8:36:17 pm
|
echeng
Registered User
(5/3/01 9:03:50 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Horrible email from a dealer...
SW -
I'm just curious. Did
you think that I was not serious about looking for an instrument
after you perused my web site, or only after you read Andrew Schaw's
email message?
Contrary to popular belief, the ENTIRE STORY
is not up on my site for public viewing. It's easy to make
assumptions if you take a paragraph clipping out of someone's life.
Machold did show me instruments in all price ranges, because
I was serious about purchasing an instrument. I mean, does it sound
plausible that I decided to go around shopping for instruments in
this price range for kicks?
I am no longer CURRENTLY in the
market because other priorities have come into my life, but that
doesn't mean that I wasn't in the market then, or that I will never
again be in it.
I have no idea who Andrew Schaw is. His email
was my first direct correspondance with him.
Edited by: echeng
at: 5/3/01 9:03:50 pm
|
SlavaBilly
Registered User
(5/3/01 11:54:07 pm)
Reply |
Mean
People Suck
|
cellochris99
Registered User
(5/4/01 3:32:42 am)
Reply |
Re:
Horrible email from a dealer...
Is it true that a lousy player can
mess up the tone of a fine instrument? You never know, I learn
something new everyday.
Some of that language in the email,
such as the repetitive use of the word "touch"(a Freudian-sp- slip,)
sounds like some kind of strange sickness in my opinion, like idol
worship or something.
Chris
|
cellofreak2000
Registered
User
(5/4/01 1:51:56 pm)
Reply |
nasty
e-mail
Eric, thanks for your answer and
your thoughts about my post.I did not intend to offend you
personally, it was just a try to explain why negative reactions on
your story could occur (Again: this A.S. e-mail is unexcusable)I
absolutely believe your experiences with these violin-dealers -
sometimes they give you a hard time. On the other hand they have to
decide very carefully, if they give away a precious instrument for
"testing", especially when you are not a renowed cellist.
Unfortunatedly there ARE lots of people in the market who do not
seriously look for an instrument.
Anyway, violin-dealing is a
very special topic in our world.An interesting - and a little bit
weird -site is
http://www.fritz-reuter.com/
So
welcome to cello-chat and all the best,
Mathias
|
cellofreak2000
Registered
User
(5/4/01 2:57:59 pm)
Reply |
Starkers Gofriller-Firebird Solo
Paul,
I certainly believe that
there are instruments which do not sound any more after centuries,
even if made by famous violinmakers - we have this problem with
"new" instruments which may sound great when you buy them and after
10 years: nothing....
Anyway, it was just a quotation from
echengs website which fit into my arguing....of course I do admit
that anyone who is involved with cello-playing has the right and the
ability to judge an instrument in his/her personal
opinion.
Concerning your Firebird_Zinman Story Iwould like to
share a little discovery of mine I made years ago while studying the
Kodaly op.8. During that time I was principal at our students
orchestra and had to play the firebird-solo (one of the most awkward
solos I know: no good fingerings available, no chance to really
imitate the oboes legato) Fed up by de- and re-tuning my instrument
I practiced the solo with the Kodaly-tuning still on the cello - it
was great! The open f# and b strings gave so much resonance and
overtones - it was half the work! Unfortunatedly this works only at
recordings.........
|
Bob
Registered User
(5/4/01 3:25:45 pm)
Reply |
correction
Starker's cello, a magnificent
Gofriller, has been his since the early 1960's. Most of his
recordings (other than the EMI) were done with it. It's not for
sale. Before that, he played a Strad. Before that (we're now around
1950), I believe he had a Guarnerius, and it is this instrument,
possibly, that is being discussed here.
|
echeng
Registered User
(5/4/01 3:37:39 pm)
Reply |
Re:
nasty e-mail
Mathias -
No offense taken.
:)
Thanks for the link -- I followed it to the Strings
Magazine article, "Mysteries of the Market", which I found very
interesting.
|
Paul
Tseng ICS Staff
Administrator
(5/4/01 4:10:47 pm)
Reply
|
Re:
correction
Could very well be, Bob.
I
should ask Mihaly Virizlay of the BSO to verify this story and tell
us which one of Starker's cello he was playing.
Paul Tseng
My Website
Alexander's website
Free Cello Music!
|
Laura
Wichers
Moderator
(5/4/01 9:35:47 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Horrible email from a dealer...
I haven't been able to access your
site (a pop-up appears requesting a password??).
The email
this Shaw person sent you is obviously just someone blowing off
steam. Many people spew out emails or posts on this board and hit
"send" before they have a chance to think about the results of their
words. Maybe Shaw is just one of those people who really doesn't
care how he comes across; that's his problem, not yours. As someone
else mentioned, just forget it ever happened.
And as for
this: "One person I sent it to said that I was doing an "internet
smear" campaign, but I don't see it that way. Email is public. If
someone writes something that nasty to ANYONE, public posting is
fair game."
I DO NOT agree with you. Email is most definitely
NOT public. If I were to send an email containing my home address,
it is not my assumption that the recipient could send that email to
whoever they pleased. This board is a public method of
communication. Email is a private method of communication. I would
never post any email in a public forum without first clearing it
with the sender. While I don't think you were necessarily attempting
to smear Shaw, I would still suggest being careful about making
public someone else's words.
Let me know about accessing your
site, I'm interested to read about your cello hunting
experiences.
Laura
|
echeng
Registered User
(5/5/01 3:56:14 am)
Reply |
Re:
Horrible email from a dealer...
Laura --
In an email I sent
to Schaw, I wrote:
"... 'private' talks are typically kept
private via boundaries of mutual respect. Since we clearly don't
have any of that going on here, you should be aware that I will
solicit support and/or action from my peers if need be."
I
agree that email should usually be considered private, but only if
there is respect in the game. If you emailed me a respectful message
stating a strong opinion against something I did, and happened to
include your home address in it, I would not even consider posting
it to a public forum.
However, if that letter was not
respectful, I would probably not hesitate to post the contents,
verbatim.
Also, you should probably know that the
transportation medium that email uses is not secure, and you should
consider that everything you send could one day end up being public
-- especially if your email is being provided for you by an
institution. This will likely be rectified in the near future (when
proper encryption technologies make it to the consumer market), but
until then... well, read this:
news.cnet.com/news/0-1005...?tag=mn_hd
Edited by: echeng
at: 5/5/01 3:56:14
am
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