| Author |
Subject |
cellochris99
Registered User
(4/29/01 5:28:53 am)
Reply |
Arcus
bows
I'm getting ready to upgrade to a
better bow, are any of you other than Andy using an Arcus bow? I've
read that the Arcus Concerto bow will work good on just about any
instrument. It looks like their(Arcus) philosophies in design are
pretty interesting and advantageous. Are there any naysayers here?
Before I send off to trial one, are they even worth looking
at?
Thanks for your help.
Chris
|
Bobbie
Registered User
(4/29/01 11:02:30 am)
Reply |
Re:
Arcus bows
I tried several of them, and I love
how they handle. But I didn't like the sound on MY cello as well as
the sound of my Coda bow. I certainly would say they are worth
trying, though.
|
TerryM
Registered
User
(4/29/01 7:39:20 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Arcus bows
I agree with Bobbie's assessment as
far as the sound on my cello. I tried the Arcus bow and had two at
once to evaluate. As much as I liked the way they handled, they were
not the kind of bow I was looking for at the time. I wanted a bow
that would draw a bigger sound with more of a range of volume. I
found the Arcus to be somewhat subdued in this respect. I did like
it very much for baroque music and music that needed a lighter
touch. I also found that the two bows had differences in playing
qualities as well. Like all bow shopping, it is probably best to try
out many before deciding.
Since my Arcus bows evaluation, I
have bought a pernambuco wood bow that I like very much. It is a
heavier bow (83.5g)than the Arcus and has the larger sound that I
was looking for. I have also come to the conclusion that no one bow
will be sufficient for all types of music. I really think a bow that
is suitable for more 19th century and modern music would not
necessarily be right for baroque or classical period music. If I had
the money, I would have an Arcus as well as my regular bow, just for
the way in which it articulates so well. I also have a lighter
weight wooden bow that I like to use for practicing, because my arm
does not get as tired as it does with my heavier bow.
Terry
|
 Steve
Drake
Registered
User
(4/29/01 9:48:14 pm)
Reply
Community Supporter
|
Re:
Arcus bows
I did a 3 week trial of an arcus
concerto se. It was a beautiful bow, and I really wanted to like it.
However I couldn't get a decent sound out of the thing no matter how
I tried. All surface sound, no fundamental. I exchanged several
emails with the guy who makes them, offering my opinions and
specific suggestions, and he brushed them all off, saying the
problems were all my technique. However, they are pretty bows, and
some people like them, so it might be worth giving it a shot.
I recently bought a coda colours bow, which is a much better
bow for more than half the price. Try one of these if you can. I
also own a Berg bow, which is really fantastic - if you can afford
one of these, they're worth trying.
My MP3's
My Cello
Homepage
|
lblake
Registered
User
(4/30/01 7:23:21 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Arcus bows
Steve, I'd be really interested to
try your cello, because it sure sounds like it's the antithesis of
mine!
Anyway, I have an Arcus concerto bow. Mine is louder
than most of the bows I tried it along with. It generally gives me
little or no surface noise. It does have a smooth, pure tone... kind
of like Larsen strings, vs. Permanents. One big thing I noticed
makes a huge difference (and, I think a lot of people might
completely lose all benefits of the bow while trying it if they miss
this) is that it takes extremely low hair tension. With the very low
tension, mine has a bigger sound, still, best response, wonderful
handling... and it does, definitely, alter the way I play.
I
think I do play it differently than any other bow... and, i think
you have to, pretty much. But, I notice that I can feel so much with
it, I can really concentrate a lot on what I'm doing with my bow, if
I want to - and worry much less about what the bow is doing by
itself. I feel much much much more in-control with my Arcus than
with all but one other bow I've ever tried... and I'm not even sure
it doesn't beat out the bow I'm thinking of in that one
respect.
But, even though I play it differently, I can pick
up any other bow, and be more comfortable than ever with it. I feel
that the Arcus has allowed me to improve my technique.
I
think that it's certainly possible that people may not like Arcus
best of all bows they can find... however, I think it's without a
doubt, worth considering. It probably depends a lot on what is most
important to you. To me, responsiveness, nimbleness, and a certain
tonal quality were most important, and the Arcus won, hands down,
when I was bow-shopping.
So, I just say, yes, it's worth
trying. Please experiment with the hair tension, for sure, while you
try. And also, please give it a good chance, since it probably is
very different in feel than other bows you've tried.
|
cellochris99
Registered User
(5/1/01 4:46:46 am)
Reply |
Re:
Arcus bows, thanks Ellen!
I recently got word of a new series
of Arcus bows that are coming out within the next few days. I might
just hold out and try one of those. Yippi! I think they might be a
little heavier, maybe new and improved! Not saying that they're bad
or anything. I got alot of good info from Ellen. So I'll be checking
in with her soon. I can't wait! I'm going to trial as many other
bows as possible.
Chris
|
Andrew
Victor
Registered
User
(5/1/01 9:43:14 am)
Reply |
The new
Arcus bow designs.
The new Arcus bows have been
described on their website for a month or more.
www.arcus-bow.de/products.htm
I
have not tried any of them yet.
The company owner, Bernd
Müsing, has described them to me quite extensively. They are not
heavier than the old designs, but their weight distribition is
different and thus their balance, and this makes them feel heavier -
with more weight toward the tip - and thus they feel more like other
bows than the earlier models did. This has been achieved by reducing
the weight of the frog (for some of the bows), the amount of
silver-wire wrap, and also by replacing the steel screw with lighter
titanium. The other Arcus web pages are well worth reading - between
them and Grütter's page ("A Bow on the Couch" - as in "analysis" at
a psychiatrist) there is more written about how bows really work
than anything else I have ever seen - even if it's still not
complete.
For those who wonder about the wide price range of
the Arcus bows - as with all composite bows, there seems to be
variablility of the sticks within the tolerances of the production
process; and even if the product cannot be made perfectly uniform,
Arcus has learned what to measure to evaluate it, and the best
sticks are made into the highest price bows. They started this last
year with their line of Concerto SE bows. This is also a practice
with Berg bows. With both of these companies I have noticed acoustic
differences in the different bow lines.
I've not seen any
indication that Coda does this - their different lines of bows seem
to be different from the start, although it is entirely possible
that the Classic and Conservatory bow sticks may come from the same
mold - but I don't know. There are differences between Coda bows
within each model too - but they seem to be more related to small
differencs in weight and balance. The Coda Aspire and Colours sticks
certainly are specially made, since they even look
different.
Andy
|
lblake
Registered
User
(5/2/01 6:25:51 am)
Reply |
Re: The
new Arcus bow designs.
Andy, so, do the newer concerto bows
still have the closer-to-the-frog weight distribution? Or has he
moved it up to more-like-normal even on those?
I feel like
the close-to-the-frog weight distribution is the thing that makes
the bow so nimble, in conjunction with its lightness... I'd be sorry
to see it go completely.
Maybe I should just get in touch
with Bernd again & ask him about that, eh?
|
Andrew
Victor
Registered
User
(5/2/01 9:32:02 am)
Reply |
Re: The
new Arcus bow designs.
Laura,
As I understand it, the
new bows have a more conventional CG location but are even lighter
thant the current bows. This should help with maintaining a constant
bow pressure out to the tip. The low mass of the bows (as much as
20% below average conventional bows) should continue to maintain
nimbleness.
On violin bows - with which I've had to be more
nimble than I have with cello bows - I've done nimble things with
bows ranging in mass from 52 grams (Arcus) to at least 62 grams.
I've found the deciding factor is in the balance more than in the
total mass. After all, my arm weighs about 80 times more than any
bow - and it always has to be moved along with the bow.
I
think the acoustics of the Arcus sticks will determine their
success.
Andy
|
Bobbie
Registered User
(5/2/01 2:41:31 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Coda bows
The Coda bows ARE inherently
different, at least, the Classic and Conservatory are. The
Conservatory bow is probably closer to the Arcus, and the Classic
closer to a conventional stick. Unfortunately for me I liked the
sound of the Classic and the handling of the Conservatory.
|
cellochris99
Registered User
(5/4/01 4:45:18 am)
Reply |
Re:
Arcus bows
So, from what I'm gathering from all
of you in a general review of the Arcus bows, is that it is very
good at finesse, articulation, and off-string, but when it comes to
pulling a rich, powerful sound and projection, it falls a little
short. I'm looking for a Berg but haven't found a dealer that has
any yet.
Chris
Edited by: cellochris99
at: 5/4/01 4:45:18 am
|
Andrew
Victor
Registered
User
(5/4/01 10:08:40 am)
Reply |
Re:
Arcus bows
Chris: It's not really quite that
simple. The Arcus bows can be very good at eliminating undesirable
(false) sounds from some cellos, particularly those associated with
some partials the cello might over emphasize with a certain set of
strings. Arcus bows may sound milder (I won't even say "softer" -
because it's not quite that) to some players, but not necessarily to
listeners.
Andy
|
lblake
Registered
User
(5/6/01 6:35:31 am)
Reply |
Re:
Arcus bows
I'm with Andy - I, too, don't think
it's quite that simple. It seems the Arcus has a "purer" tone, or
voice than many other bows. The elimination of some overtones like
Andy describes is part of that. And, as for volume, I think it again
must depend some on the instrument, at least. But, in my bow-testing
experiences, when I had a Coda Classic, a Berg Deluxe, and a
pernambuco bow I was using in the test, My listener found the Arcus
to be the loudest, and the Berg Deluxe came in second. I think, in
Andy's trials of the same bows, though, the Berg was louder on his
cellos. (Andy will probably remember better). They were pretty
close, anyway.
So, I, too, would caution you against assuming
that the Arcus is a quiet bow. It may not be the very loudest, but
who knows - maybe the new ones are louder, too. ??????
|
Ryan
Selberg .gif)
Registered
User
(5/6/01 10:13:33 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Arcus bows
Thought I'd join in on the
discussion, as I have just had two students trying a bunch of bows,
both synthetics and wood bows. The carbon fibers, which were sent
out by Ellen Gunst, at Cellos2Go, included two Bergs, a Coda
Classic, an Arcus, and a Spiccato. The wood bows were a collection
in the same price range sent to me from Tom Dignan, a very fine
Boston-based bow maker, who is handling student priced bows made in
Brazil.
The Brazilian bows, ranging from $790-1400, were
uniformly excellent, a welcome surprise after seeing so much junk in
the same price range from German and Asian bow factories. Tom has
been assisting with the makers in Brazil. They also have the raw
materials right in their own backyard!
The carbon fiber bows
were a mixed bag. The one I didn't like at all, nor did my students,
was the Spiccato, with the adjustable tension thread. The older
student, a college student who is a dance major (she is very petite,
with small hands) liked the feel of the Arcus the best, but when we
did sound tests on both her instrument (a mediocre Chinese cello,
which will soon be replaced by a hand made instrument from Chris
Dungey, of Pocatello, Idaho) and my Grubaugh & Seifert cello,
one of the Brazilian bows sounded significantly better, with a
deeper and purer sound (and louder!). I had previously used it for a
half during a pops concert with the Utah Symphony, and a collegue
used it for the second half. Both of us liked the articulation and
handling of the bow, but were frustrated at the work required to try
to pull sound out of our instruments. Perhaps it is just our
unfamiliarity with the radically different style of the Arcus, but
sound tests with the students (my other student chose a Coda
Classic, although it also became a close contest with one of the
Brazilian bows. The Coda won mainly because of the approximately
$500 difference in price) left the Arcus behind others for sound.
The Berg was basically too expensive for them to consider, at $2750.
(I also own 2 Bergs, which I find to sound excellent, but not nearly
as crisp and articulate as I would like. I want to contact Michael
Duff at Berg to see if he can add additional camber to them to
improve the articulation.) Also, all the bows were in the 78-81 gram
range, except for the Arcus, which I measured at 70.8 grams.
I hope I have added some useful information, although I
think I perhaps rambled a bit too much. Sorry.
Do contact
Ellen Gunst or Tom Dignan if you want some hands on time with bows.
I will be sending the Bergs (one of which has his new "cab-forward"
designed frog, in which the frog slants toward the tip, to put more
weight over the hair. I found it very uncomfortable, personally),
the Arcus, and the Spiccato back early this week, so she should have
them probably on Thursday or Friday. Same with Tom and the Brazilian
bows.
Ryan
|
lblake
Registered
User
(5/7/01 6:07:19 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Arcus bows
Very interesting! BTW, which Arcus
were you trying? It sounds about 5g lighter than my Arcus, so I'm
wondering if you got one of the newer designs (the cadenza or
sinfonia)
|
Ryan
Selberg
Registered
User
(5/8/01 12:21:56 am)
Reply |
Re:
Arcus bows
It was a Concerto, according to
Ellen.
Ryan
|
cellochris99
Registered User
(5/8/01 4:43:12 am)
Reply |
Re:
Arcus bows
Have any of you tried that little
technique of removing a couple of the bow hairs, which is suppose to
give the Arcus a little more power? The Arcus website says that!
Chris
|
Andrew
Victor
Registered
User
(5/8/01 10:04:21 am)
Reply |
Re:
Arcus bows
It is my opinion that this can be a
mistake with an Arcus bow. The stick is very stiff, so that it can
tolerate a lot of tightening, if you find you must do this to raise
the tension in the individual hairs to a sufficient level. If you
remove to many hairs, you will find the optimum tension in the
individual hairs is reached before you have as much standoff from
the stick as you want. I, personally, believe that with an Arcus
bow, the goal one seeks by removing a few hairs can be achieved by
tightening the hair just a bt more. This is not so with most other
bows. (If you must remove a few hairs, try no more than 8, and I
have no idea why such a small number should make a
difference.)
With most (other) pernambuco and composite bows
(that simulate the elastic properties of pernambuco) if there is too
much hair, it is not possible to get enough tension into each hair
and still have the proper flexure properties of the stick. With many
such bows, I have found improved playing qualities if I remove some
hairs (sometimes as much as 1/3 of them, with soft sticks). At
optimum concitions with these bows the elasticity of the hair and of
the stick interplay in a way that is different than with an Arcus
bow. I wonder why the techicians overhaired them in the first place
- I suspect there are some things about this that they don't
understand.
If you do get an Arcus bow, and if you do get it
rehaired some day (later rather than sooner, I hope - but sooner if
you start removing hairs [as I once did]), be sure to tell the
luthier how much hair you want in it (it is best to do this by
telling him the total weight of the bow you want after it is
rehaired - SO - weigh it when you first get it). Otherwise chances
are you will not get enough hair on it. I've had trouble in this
regard. Lacking the weight datum, it is my opinion that you want him
to use as much hair as can be fit into the Arcus
bow.
Andy
|
cellochris99
Registered User
(5/9/01 5:50:03 am)
Reply |
Re:
Arcus bows
Thanks Andy, you must be the bow
god! Very helpful indeed.
| |
Email This To a
Friend
Topic Commands
(Moderator only)