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FirstPosition
Registered
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Posts: 1
(5/19/01 11:22:57
am)
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Looking at a new
Chinese cello to purchase
What do you know about new cellos made in China?. My daughter(14)
has been playing for 20 months and we're looking to purchase a cello
for her. She's looked at and played on a number of cellos in an
effort to find the right one for her. Currently she's interested in
a new cello made in China. It has a bright tone, a little edge to it
but that we're told will mellow over time(in a few years?). What do
you know about the quality of Chinese cellos? It's going for
$5000(no case or bow).
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Rich
Rodriguez
Registered User
Posts: 49
(5/19/01 11:29:27 am)
Reply
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Re: Looking at a
new Chinese cello to purchase
Who's the maker? Thats a little high for a Chinese instrument. It
really depends on the amount of quality and time put into it. Scott
Cao makes really good instrument for around that price.
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lblake
Registered User
Posts: 354
(5/20/01 8:55:47 pm)
Reply
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Re: Looking at a
new Chinese cello to purchase
I think it just depends on the instrument. Does it seem to be worth
that? I've heard of amazing chinese cellos throughout the under
$10,000 range. The instruments coming out of china lately seem to
very often be real bargains. I've also heard that you can't know who
the maker is because the chinese government won't allow makers to
sign them.
anyway, if you like the cello, and it seems worth
the price, it very well may be.
I know that's nothing specific,
but hope it helps, anyway.
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cellochris99
Registered
User
Posts: 185
(5/21/01 3:40:06
am)
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Re: Looking at a
new Chinese cello to purchase
Iblake made a good point. The Chinese instruments have really come
up in recent years in terms of quality and value, at least that's
what the president of Shar, Charles Avsharian, says. They have some
chinese violins,(but no cellos) in their recent catalogue for the
first time ever, so they must be finding some decent ones now.
Essentially, the Chinese instrument makers have recently figured out
that green wood is not the best material for violin
construction!
Iblake, they must have a crazy restriction like
that in Bulgaria too. My cello has the Maker's name(Mintcho Minchev)
printed on the label by the contractor (or whatever you call it)
here in America, but not as if done by the maker himself. The
certificate is basically the same style. I run into deadends trying
to get much info on the maker of, other than he's working in his own
private workshop in Bulgaria, and that he's done some really good
work , which I
agree,-beautiful sounding instrument and construction detail down to
the millimeter.
Chris
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Mgatof2
Registered
User
Posts: 11
(5/21/01 8:06:48
am)
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Cello
Recommendations
Ellen Gunst at Cellos2Go has done a respectable job pulling
together better student instruments, and I would recommend you
contact her for advice on Chinese (and other) instruments. She
accessible, articulate, and has lots of practical
experience.
To me, $5K seems like a lot for a Chinese
instrument, esp. sans bow and case. I agree they have gotten better
in recent years, but they are still not the equivalent for a good
European factory instrument. Many *look* great, though!
About
20 months ago we searched for a 3/4 instrument for my son to trade
up to. We tried numerous instruments, many Chinese. To our teacher
and to us, they were no bargain. We happily settled for a Klier
(German) from Potters in Bethesda, MD. They can ship anywhere,
prices include case and bow, and they're considerably lower than the
range you're in. Max has hauled that cello everywhere (including
camp); it has held up extremely well, except for when he dropped it
once (sweaty hands) and the neck broke off exactly where it should
have, saving the instrument from any serious damage. Others have
posted concerns about thinness and longevity of Doetch/Klier
instruments, but as yet, we have no practical substantiation for
that claim. Many, many people have commented on the excellent sound
quality and playability of this instrument, so we recommend it with
out reservation. It will likely be our next stop at a 4/4, and I
will keep if for orchestra, etc. when he's ready for
more.
I'd also suggest a call to Claire Givens. She has
worked with Michael Goronok, some of his instruments are in this
range. She is a good, reputable dealer (Indianapolis.)
Too,
work carefully with your daughter's teacher. Over the years I have
noted many people make the selection of an instrument without
bringing the teacher totally into the loop. You will gain much by
involving the teacher, even paying for a lesson just to select an
instrument. Beware of dealers who don't offer trade up, return, etc.
policies. We've been burned on that issue! Beware, too, of teachers
who recommend dealers, not instruments. The kickback issue is one of
the dirty little secrets of the industry...
Oh, two other
things...sorry for rambling. (1) Don't underestimate/undervalue the
importance of the bow in the playability and sound. We upgraded our
bow - the difference is remarkable. Budget 15-25% of the value of
the cello just for the bow (others may argue this point successfully
with the new carbon bows...we have no experience.) (2) Match the
sound of the instrument to the 'inner voice' of your daughter. If
she's soft-spoken, you don't want a big, overwhelming sound. Your
teacher will help here.
Good luck!
Mark
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SW
Registered User
Posts: 35
(5/21/01 8:58:48 am)
Reply
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Re: Looking at a
new Chinese cello to purchase
I agree with Mark that $5000 sounds kind of high for a Chinese
cello. We've gotten two cellos from Potters and have been very
pleased. My daughter's teacher and also summer teachers, etc. have
been very pleased and they all estimated the value at $2000-$4000
more than what we paid. We tried some Chinese cellos and weren't at
all pleased. I also agree that the teacher should be involved. We
had some lessons where we brought instruments to try, and that's all
those lessons were, instrument try-out lessons. You want to get the
best instrument for your money in terms of resale value and also for
your child's playing. It is an important decision. We spent many
months looking for the right instrument that fit our budget, and our
hard work paid off. Sometimes I think it's harder when ones budget
is limited, as was ours. It was not a situation of which wonderful
instrument do we buy, but rather we had to wade through dozens of
really bad instruments before we hit a few decent ones. That allowed
us to hope that we would really find something we would be happy
with--and we held out until we did! After you listen to some
(especially with a teacher playing) you will begin to hear how some
are nasal, some are bright, some have no low register, some have no
dynamic range, and some old ones have too many cracks. After awhile
you will start to know what you are looking for. Be very patient!
Brand new instruments in that price range won't go away. They will
be replaced on the rack by another when sold.
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 Steve
Drake
Registered User
Posts: 326
(5/21/01 10:05:21 am)
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Community Supporter
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Re: Looking at a
new Chinese cello to purchase
I think 5K is a bit high for a chinese instrument, unless it comes
with a case and decent bow.
I have a chinese cello, which
has a label put in by the american distributor that says it's from
the workshop of Xue-Chang Sun, Beijing. That workshop supposedly had
grades of cellos from 1 to 9, and mine is a 9. The dealer I got it
from, who is a friend, sells similar cellos for about 5k, although I
paid considerably less than that for mine. I use mine as a second
cello, mainly for outdoor concerts and roadwork. It has fantastic
wood on the sides and back, but the top is pretty bland, which
unfortunately is a regular problem with chinese instruments.
Soundwise it's a mix, with great sounding A and C strings, but the
middle strings are a bit harsh sounding.
I wouldn't count on
the tone improving over the years - it probably will, but it's
really a good idea to be happy with the tone from the start, in case
it doesn't improve. You can possibly fix the sound with better
strings, a better bridge, and maybe a soundpost adjustment, but
don't expect any or all of these to be magic bullets that fix
everything.
I'd also suggest contacting Potters for ideas.
Within the NSO's cello section, there are 2 potters instruments used
as second cellos, and they're both great, better than my chinese
cello. One of them is a Kleier cello, used by our principal.
My MP3's
My Cello
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Len
Thompson
Registered User
Posts: 191
(5/21/01 2:23:41 pm)
Reply
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Re:Potter's
Cello's?
Steve, what's the other cello from Potter's? Do you know? I'm just
curious, as my cello is also from Potter's, but perchased from
Cello's 2 Go.
Len
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Steve
Drake
Registered User
Posts: 327
(5/21/01 2:33:53 pm)
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Community Supporter
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Re: Re:Potter's
Cello's?
I think it's a Doetsch, or something spelled similarly.
My MP3's
My Cello
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Kasey
Registered
User
Posts: 20
(5/21/01 2:37:21
pm)
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Potter's
cellos
I also have a Potter's as a second cello which was my primary cello
in high school and first year of conservatory. I can attest to the
quality of the cellos too, although mine is slightly older (1994).
There was some talk of the cellos that were made slightly after
having tops that were carved too thinly and thus prone to cracking.
Mine actually has a soundpost crack but it's not from faulty
craftmanship; it's from an ill fated flight into JFK in which I got
to see my cello get dropped on it's bridge from a height of about 10
feet (in addition to the soundpost crack the brige also broke in
half). The luthier in Baltimore that I took it to told me he had
seen alot of cellos made later with sound post cracks because of a
top that was too thin, but that mine wasn't. And the cello was
definitely a great value and has a great sound as have most of the
cellos I've tried from their shop and I would also highly recommend
them. Good Luck!
Kasey
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SW
Registered User
Posts: 36
(5/21/01 3:02:59 pm)
Reply
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Re: Potter's
Cello's? What's yours, Len?
My daughter's 3/4 size was a Doetsch. Her full size is a Weaver
cello (before Potter took over part of the business). It was
supposedly hand-made by someone who has his own shop and makes more
costly instruments, but makes cheaper versions that had the Weaver
label on them. A bit more costly than the Doetsch...a terrific
instrument for the price. What's yours, Len?
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herdish23
Registered
User
Posts: 43
(5/21/01 3:35:53
pm)
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|
Chinese
cello
I am a happy owner of a Chinses cello. I bought the cello 3 yrs
ago. (I think, something like that, well anyway). The sound is
imporoving all the time! At first I had truoble getting used to the
instrument and the sound, but after working with it for a while it
went much better and today I am really glad i bought that very
cello!
Before I bought it, I had been looking for a cello
for a long time and of course tried a lot of cellos too. I always
took the cello I was thinking of buying to my celloteacher who tried
it as well and told me what he thought etc. The final decition was
mine though.
I must say I didn't spend that much money, 14000
NOK (ca 2000 US$). The bow was not included, neiter a case or bag.
My teachers are really pleased with the cello as well as I
am.
The only thing I have to say is talk with your teacher
when you are buying an instrument and also spend some time finding a
good bow that goes well with your cello.
GOOD
LUCK!!
Herdis
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Betsy
C 
Registered User
Posts: 339
(5/21/01 4:44:18 pm)
Reply
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Doetsch/Klier
I feel compelled yet again to add a shameless plug in favor of
Potter's. I bought my Doetsch from them 1 1/2 years ago and have
been very consistently satisfied with it. I have not experienced the
problems I have heard related, not at all. It's nice that there are
as many options out there these days as there are cellists. The
luthier I go to for periodic soundpost tweaks, etc. has also been
making some nice cellos in the price range that you mention. If you
are interested, I'd be glad to give you his name. I am not sure just
what he does, whether he makes the cello from step one or does just
the setup, but I have seen, heard and played (albeit a short time) a
cello or two that he showed me, and I liked them a lot. I trust him,
too. That is a big plus IMHO. I'd also like to put in a shameless
plug for cellos2go. Ellen will treat you right as well.
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Len
Thompson
Registered User
Posts: 192
(5/21/01 7:29:19 pm)
Reply
|
Re:
Doetsch/Klier
My cello is the Doetsch, and I'm quite happy with it. But my bow
has got to go!
Len
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playingfavorites
Registered User
Posts: 110
(5/22/01 12:05:17 am)
Reply
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Gailes
Why shamelessly plug one shop, then be shy about plugging the one
you go to for help and someone you like and trust?!!! If it's
William Gailes, (I hope so), give him a plug (all right, this will
suffice). All the shops have to look in similar places - whether
China, or Eastern Europe, etc. for good cellos at prices students
can manage. Gailes does a far superior job in selecting and
finishing in my opinion and his prices are fair. I've seen Doetsch's
with tight soundposts and pegs stuffed with Lava soap, and with
varnish you can remove by accident with the wrong cleaner or polish.
Gailes continues to turn out impressive work while the other guys
(Potters and Weavers are the same operation) seem underservedly to
rest on past laurels.
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Betsy
C
Registered User
Posts: 340
(5/22/01 4:54:49 am)
Reply
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Re: Gailes (To
playingfavorites)
Hi playingfavorites: good point- I should not be shy about
mentioning Gailes Violin Shop. Yes, it is Bill Gailes, and yes, he
has treated me very well! Interesting you mentioned the soundpost,
because my soundpost was extremely tight. It was purchased that way
from Potter's, and I completely forgot about it which is why I did
not mention it here. Bill Gailes made some changes to my cello,
including a new soundpost and I have used his services exclusively
ever since. I hope to be seeing him later this week. I bring my
cello to him occasionally for a checkup. I really don't want to be
reserved when talking about him. He is truly top notch, and my cello
always just continues to improve after a trip to him!
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Len
Thompson
Registered User
Posts: 194
(5/22/01 5:26:21 pm)
Reply
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Doetsch sound
posts
Well, I don't have any Lava soap on my pegs, and as for polish, I
recently posted a reply from Potters on the I&E board concerning
the polish they recomend. However, I think you have a point about
tight sound posts playingfavorites. The top of my sound post has a
small portion of the wood that is cracked away, an indicator I'm
sure, that it was installed to tight! Besides undue stress on the
top, what other problems can this cause? Does it affect the sound
production? I currently use a bow that I beleive Potters offers with
the cello I have, as a set. I get a lot of hair noise, and a nasal
type of sound, and until now I thought all the blame was on the bow!
So, are there any other symptoms caused by a tight post?
Particularly of the sound or playablity type. Anyone?
Len
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Betsy
C
Registered User
Posts: 342
(5/22/01 7:40:05 pm)
Reply
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To Len: Re
Bow
Hi Len, I'd be curious what kind of bow you have if you don't mind
sharing the information. I got my cello, case and bow from Potter's
too. I am really happy with my bow (an octagonal stick Jos.
Schneider). Is yours the same, perhaps? I really like the way it
feels and it's playability. It just feels right in my hand. I guess
that there are many reasons a person likes a bow, but mine just
feels really right to me.
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Len
Thompson
Registered User
Posts: 195
(5/22/01 8:53:08 pm)
Reply
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Re: To Betsy Re
Bow
Hi Betsy, My bow is a W. Seifert. I purchased it for another cello
before I got the Doetsch, and it was an improvment over what I was
useing at the time. I noticed that Potters offered the same name bow
with their outfits, although I'm not sure if it is the same model.
This one was from Shar, and I payed $435. if I remember correctly.
It's finished quite nicely, and for me it handles pretty well. But
sound production is another matter. Every now and then it's great,
and the cello sound fabulous. But changes in weather, hair tension,
rosin type etc. etc., have not seemed to be factors for it's
misbehaving. Neither does it seem to be me, for when it's playing
well, I'm doing things just the same as always. It's kind of spooky.
I can be having a lousy sound one day, so I'll put it away with out
playing much, and then the next day I pick it up and WOW!, it's
great, and I'll play for hours. The days it sounds good are like 1
out of 50. I don't honestly know if it's the bow, the cello, me or
all three. Weird!
Len
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Len
Thompson
Registered User
Posts: 196
(5/22/01 9:20:22 pm)
Reply
|
Back to
China!
We have all been talking Potters, but to get back to the Chinese
issue for a moment. I did try a Chinese cello marketed in the US by
Eastman, and I thought it was great. It was a few hundred dollars
less than the Doetsch, but I thought very comparative in most
respects. It had a bright sound, but a good one. Not thin or tin
like, but more of a crisp sound. The wood was fabulous for the
$$,light as a feather in your hands, and it had very nice action.
Why didn't I buy it? Well, it originally came in place of the
Doetsch, which was not available at the moment, so I gave it a try,
and loved it. Alas, it developed a flaw at a critical joint and had
to be sent back. So I got my original choise, the Doetsch. While I
very much like the Doetsch, I equally liked the Eastman. Different
sound, looks and action, but both nice. The flaw was at least
somewhat forseeable, however it was major. But I would definately
give them a look if I was in the market at that price again, about
$1800. Of course, your welcome to disagree, this is only mt
opinion.
Len
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playingfavorites
Registered User
Posts: 111
(5/22/01 10:49:54 pm)
Reply
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to Len
Yes a tight soundpost can cause playability problems. More
urgently, it can crack your cello. Other factors may be binding up
your sound - or your technique - but do get the cello some relief
ASAP. And I hope if you're around D.C. you'll try Gailes' where
(unless they're swamped) there's usually a big dose of consumer
education and a shred of empathy as well.
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