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jmm68
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Posts: 1
(5/5/01 10:27:07
pm)
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Adult beginning
cello lessons - advice appreciated
I am an adult in my early thirties who has just started learning
the cello. I have never learned any instrument before and had always
wanted to learn the cello.
I had my third lesson last week
and my cello teacher indicated that possibly I should consider
another instrument. This is because I have had some difficult
reaching the open A string. Initially he thought I should try a
smaller cello (I am a short and stocky build) but after trying the
3/4 he didn't appear to think I would improve my reach with
practice.
My question is this - are 3x30 minute lessons
enough to decide this? I am a natural left hander and have taken
some time getting used to changing my orientation to right. I also
use a lower chair at home than I do at class and I generally find
practice easier at home.
I have only been learning as a hobby
so I certainly don't want to persist with something that I am truly
not able to make any improvement in but I also don't want to give up
if there is any possiblity I will be able to eventually get better.
As I indicated I have always loved the cello and it took me a long
time to gather the courage to begin lessons.
Any advice would
be appreciated.
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cellissima2
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Posts: 3
(5/5/01 11:28:56
pm)
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Re: Adult
beginning cello lessons - advice appreciated
I find your question perplexing. Having not had the opportunity to
work with you on these problems in person, I do not think I'm in a
position to second-guess your cello teacher. However, if he does not
feel that he can help you, you might consider getting a second
opinion before giving up entirely.
I have not had a student
that could not reach the a string if holding the cello properly. I
have encountered female adult beginners who have difficulty holding
the cello properly because their, um, cleavage makes it
uncomfortable. However, there are also a lot of well-endowed women
who are accomplished cellists, indicating that it can be done. If
you think the problem is because of your body type, go to a concert
or two and see if you can find a cellist with a similar build, and
check out how they are holding the cello. Also, If the lower chair
at home makes you feel more comfortable when playing, why not bring
the chair with you to your lesson?
I have worked with quite
a few adult beginners, and to be honest, most of them give it up
when they realize they don't have time to practice enough to achieve
the sound that made them fall in love with the instrument in the
first place. I don't want to discourage you from pursuing it, just
be aware that learning to play cello requires a lot of time, effort,
and tenacity. The rewards can be great, but they don't come quickly
or inexpensively. You need to decide (maybe not right now, but
sometime soon)whether it's worth it to you. If it is, then go for
it! If not, at least you gave it a try, and you can enjoy listening
to others play the cello with no regrets. Best of luck to you.
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raymcc85
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User
Posts: 28
(5/6/01 1:47:54
am)
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Re: Adult
beginning cello lessons - advice appreciated
Don't give up the cello just because of this criticism. If you can
"reach" the A string at home, you can at a lesson. I agree that
perhaps the next best step is to get a second opinion. In any case,
my advice is to stop playing only if you feel that it's best to
stop, not because someone else urges you to stop. Others have
learned. So will you.
-r
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mremmers
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User
Posts: 6
(5/6/01 8:26:21
am)
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Re: Adult
beginning cello lessons - advice appreciated
I'd not have another lesson with this teacher. Period. He is
obviously not willing to help you achieve your dream.
I
picked up the cello at 43, cold, not even knowing how to read music.
We worked through some issues with position to accomodate my size.
And I made the committment to practice no matter how frustrating and
illusive the goal seemed.
Eight years later I play in an
orchestra and trio. I'm pretty sure had my first encounter been with
your teacher I'd never have made it through.
Hang in there.
Find a teacher who loves working with adults and give it at least a
year before making any assumptions that the cello is not for you.
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Andrew
Victor
Registered User
Posts: 298
(5/6/01 9:29:01 am)
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Re: Adult
beginning cello lessons - advice appreciated
I empathize with your problems, although I do not have the
left-handed orientation to fully understand them.
The
variables, of chair height, cello-endpin length, angle of the
instrument to the floor, angle of the instrument about its endpin -
all can be varied to adjust TO YOU!! That is the important thing. I
always carry a little tapemeasure with me aned premeasure the chair
I will have to sit in to play the cello - then I lengthen or shorten
the endpin accordingly. You should have an endpin at least 20-21
inches long, to give you enough range of adjustment.* Play with
enough endpin extension to allow you to get some natural help
(gravity) getting bow force on the strings. Typically, I think the
C-string tuning peg should be at the hight of the left ear whenever
you play. (* My first cello had only a 12-inch long endpin, my next
only 16-inches - neigher is really enough. The standard endpin
diameter is about 8 mm. An endpin can be removed [although sometimes
it requires that the strings and bridge be taken down and the endpin
fittient be removed. Then a longer, "removable," can be substituted.
I and many of us here would recommend using an 8mm carbon-fiber
endbin from David Bice at New Harmony. In addition to giving needed
length, it works wonders for tone.)
Typical playing angle of
the bow hair on the strings will tilt the stick toward you so you
are playng on the nearer edge of the hair "ribbon" and do not have
to contort your right arm and wrist. Playing with a bent right thumb
can be difficult - many great cellists have been observed using a
straight thumb to help hold the bow (whatever any teacher says). The
top of the hand (wrist) should generally be parallel to the plane of
the bow (for cello playing), although for certain strokes and to get
index finger force on the bow, when needed, this will be
changed.
Best angle of the cello about its endpin will not
have it flat across your own chest (call that 0 degrees), but pushed
out a little on the left side, perhaps 10 to 20 degrees (maybe even
a rare 30 degrees, if that works for you at times). Nor do you have
to keep that angle constant. This will make it easier to reach the A
string with the bow.
This angle will make playing straight
(perpendicularly) across the strings deceptive, and you will have to
raise your right hand a bit as you pull the bow to your right.
Otherwise, you will have a tendency to squawk at times. Even this
angle may have to be adjusted for some notes (on some
cellos).
Best of luck.
Andy
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Tracie
Price 
Registered User
Posts: 490
(5/6/01 1:56:50 pm)
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Do not give
up
I agree with others here in that perhaps all you need to do is
alter your playing position. I've not heard of someone switching to
a smaller cello because of not being able to reach the A string.
From what you've said, it doesn't appear that this teacher really
wants to help you learn the cello, have you looked for another
teacher? Personally, I love teaching adult beginners because I am
impressed by their bravery in trying something new, when most people
wouldn't. People of all shapes and sizes play the cello, don't let
this teacher quash your dream.
Do some experimenting with
chair height and endpin length and angle of the cello.
And
find a new teacher!
Best wishes
Tracie
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Betsy
C 
Registered User
Posts: 321
(5/7/01 4:55:13 am)
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Do NOT give
up!
I'd look for another teacher perhaps. This teacher may be trying to
be realistic with you, but with a lot of diligence you can have
enjoyable experiences with the cello. I started at age 44, a little
over a year and a half ago, and I hava a really good time (usually).
I say usually, because lately things have been going haywire in my
personal life (you know, aging parents getting very ill, etc) and
there are times when the cello has to take a back seat. If you can
locate a teacher who understands that adults have responsibilities
and you really do make a diligent effort to practice, you can
definitely reach some level of playing that will enable you to make
music for YOUR enjoyment, and that is why you wanted to start the
cello anyway, because YOU liked it, right? I wish you all the best,
and I am not a natural cellist as far as innate ability goes, so I
know a bit of how you feel. Maybe visit the Cellists By Night Board
periodically; you can learn a lot there from people who face the
same dilemmas about starting later in life. Give it a real try-
don't be discouraged. Ask questions! Above all, don't shortchange
yourself from the start. Learning cello can be hard, but it is also
worth it. Just a thought: could you move (with a new teacher) to
hourly lessons? I think the continuity of time helps. You (like me)
are left handed, too. That does not have to be an obstacle. The bow
hold will come. There are times still when it all comes together for
me and feels right, and I have many times where none of this feels
like I ever picked it up before in my life! The cello can be a good
journey- have fun with it! Best to you. Let us know what you've
decided. I hope you go for it.
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jmm68
Registered
User
Posts: 2
(5/7/01 5:39:19
am)
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|
Thanks and one
further question
I would like to thank everyone for their feedback. I have decided
to give it a try and I went picked up my cello today. I realise it
won't be easy but I am prepared to work hard.
I have one
related question. I feel most comfortable with my endpin extended
around 5 inches (I am five foot tall). My teacher has extended it
quite a bit longer for my lessons - I think because the chair I use
in class is higher. I wonder if there is any rule/ratio for how far
the endpin needs to be extended.
Thanks again I really
appreciated the advice as my confidence was slightly dented.
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Andrew
Victor
Registered User
Posts: 299
(5/7/01 9:49:45 am)
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Endpin
extension
jimm68,
I gave you part of my "rule." I extend the endpin so
that the C-string tuning peg is at the height of my left ear. I
angle the cello to me and the floor so that when I sit straight in
the chair, the peg is at my left ear, but if I lean forward to play,
of course it is a bit behind me. I practice in a chair that is
18-inches (45 cm) floor to seat. From all I can tell - these
measurements are fairly typical - and lead to a pin extension of
about 16-1/2 inches from the cello body itself. I have certainly
seen people play with a much shorter extension - but I think it
leads to some bad technique - it definitely forces you to lean
forward into the cello - which has got to be hard on your back.
It is not your height when standing that determines the
endpin extension, but your height when seated. The chair should be
of a height that allows you to put your feet on the floor
comfortably.
Some cellists like to sit on a wedge (or
wedge-shaped pillow) that tilts them forward a bit - and can help if
their legs are bit short for the chair - it also helps get over the
"lip" of some chairs - for comfort (and for men- for prostate
health).
Andy
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Markse
Registered
User
Posts: 12
(5/7/01 10:40:11
am)
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Re: Adult
beginning cello lessons - advice appreciated
A few thoughts on your situation.
I pleased to see that
you're no going to give up. Take some time, several months at least,
then consider how you feel about playing the cello.
I'm
trying to imagine effectively playing with the endpin extended only
5 inches! Review Andrew Victor's post on playing position. It's good
advice. You'll have a much easier time if you start with a proper
playing position.
Get another teacher. Any teacher who lets
you continue with improper playing position AND tells you to give it
up after only a few lessons is NOT going to help you learn to play
the cello.
Good luck to you.
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claud19
Registered
User
Posts: 14
(5/10/01 11:37:48
am)
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Don't give
up
I really have none of the excellent advice the other responders
have given you. I just wanted to give you more encouragement not to
give up. Your post made me sad, because I know the feeling of having
wanted to play cello. I'm 33, and have been playing for 2 years, 4
months. It's easily the hardest thing I've ever done, but the most
rewarding. Keep this in mind: I started to take karate classes when
I was 28 or so. After two weeks of classes, and my incredibly bad
athletic abilities were showing, the sensei told me (nicely) that
perhaps karate was not for me, and I should try something else.
Well, this only fired me up, and made me work harder. I am still
karate-ing. By no means am I great at it, and I progress much slower
than my classmates, but I enjoy it and that's what counts. I'm sure
you can find some way to adjust to your size. Find another teacher
as well!
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gengranny
Registered
User
Posts: 3
(5/26/01 10:49:06
am)
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Re: Adult
beginning cello lessons - advice appreciated
I just came across your post in the archives. I am also an adult
beginner (8 mos of lessons), 5'1" tall and am also left-handed. You
might want to consider looking for a 7/8 size cello. I purchased a
7/8 cello in a local shop that is perfect for me. When I practice I
use a regular dining table chair that slopes slightly at the back.
Even though I sit on the very edge of the chair, my back would begin
to hurt during practice so I placed 1.5" blocks of wood under the
back legs of the chair. This raises the back of the chair and allows
me to be up and forward into a better playing position. I even use
the blocks during my lessons. Hope this helps! Please keep in
touch!
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bridge
Registered User
Posts: 122
(5/26/01 8:38:12 pm)
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Ack!
Remember Bill the Cat? My feelings after reading your post can be
captured by this cartoon character.
I'd DEFINITELY find
another teacher.
Not everyone's going to be "the best
cellist". But really, to say it is impossible for you to play at all
after three lessons is ridiculous.
I would guess, that unless
someone has a physical disability they should (with LOTS of work) be
able to play the cello to *some* level.
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jekerry
Registered
User
Posts: 255
(5/27/01 7:07:10
am)
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|
5' is not really
that short!
Hey, your teacher is pretty strange! Think of all those kids that
start cello when they are WAY under 5'!!!!! I am only five foot a
little bit of an inch with short fingers -- my teacher is about the
same! Look for a teacher with a similar build and size, maybe. I
really like my current teacher and she is the first short teacher
I've ever had. It's soooooo cool to have a teacher who says, "Oh,
the way I fixed that problem .. . . " instead of saying, "Why can't
you reach that extension . . . ."
So don't give up! Find a
better teacher. Plus, that five inch end pin??? Doesn't sound right
to me at all.
Most amazing thing I ever had happen was at a
class given by Gary Karr when I was in college and played the bass.
I made the mistake of complaining about my small hands. He made me
hold up my hand and showed me his hand was about the same size!!!
Can you imagine someone could play the bass like he does and be that
tiny?? He's not a big person at all -- very small.
So keep
going. You just have to work a little harder. And when you someday
are working up there in thumb position, you'll be glad your hand
isn't too big!
Best,
Jane
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Parker
Garvin
Registered User
Posts: 30
(5/27/01 7:54:09 am)
Reply
|
your endpin,
your life
First of all, I'm also glad you're sticking with it. I have a
student in his 50's who I thought was going to quit because his
progress last year was so slow, but he stuck to it and now we're
making some music!
About your endpin height, the "ear" method
that Victor talked about works well with my adult student. He also
found it helpful to conciously tuck the lower-right corner of the
C-bout in his knee.
Frankly, I believe that's its hard enough
to start learning an instrument as an adult, especially when its a
hobby and you have a lot of pressures on your time. If your teacher
and you are not jiving well then find someone who is ON YOUR PAGE.
The whole process will feel better and you will get so much more out
of it!
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Victor
Sazer
Registered User
Posts: 88
(5/27/01 10:33:04 am)
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|
Wedge
cushion?
The point of using a wedged cushion is to allow you to sit upright
on yur sit-bones rather than to tilt your body forward.
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Victor
Sazer
Registered User
Posts: 89
(5/27/01 10:47:51 am)
Reply
|
Can't reach A
string?
If you can’t reach the A string, question the instruction you are
receiving. As others have already pointed out, your size and
left-handedness cannot be the obstacles. Find another
teacher!
You might also check out New Directions in Cello
Playing, subtitled How to Make Cello Playing Easier and Play Without
Pain. See: home.earthlink.net/~vsazer
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