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PDL
on cgda
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User
Posts: 1
(6/26/01 3:39:45
am)
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I hate it (for
the moment)
Performed in duo yesterday. After five years of struggling still
managed to intonate terribly even in first position. I'm getting so
frustrated. Where are all those hours of practice - and what did
they mean? "Music, your hobby. Be sure to have fun while playing."
Yeah, sure... The music is in my head, but not in those aching
fingers. I keep thinking of a very interesting quote from Itzhak
Perlman, about the tension between hearing music in your head and
hearing.. euh.. well, what comes out of your instrument. "If you
hear it, but you can't do it, you quit..."
|
DoDahlberg
Moderator
Posts: 99
(6/26/01 4:15:18 am)
Reply
|
Re: I hate it
(for the moment)
We all hate it sometimes and it isn't always fun. So go ahead, vent
and complain just don't quit.
Go play tennis or something
that allows you to hit something really hard without getting
arrested.
Dorie |
DWThomas
Registered User
Posts: 358
(6/26/01 7:24:42 am)
Reply
|
Re: I hate it
(for the moment)
Now take three deep breaths and relax!
Was this your first
attempt at doing this? You say "performance" -- as in recital or
public appearance? I would think the anxiety would make me forget at
least a third of what I know. Not to mention that with anxiety
there's a tendency to physical tension. And with physical tension,
there's a tendency to scrunch up the left hand (at least for yours
truly) which will not help intonation.
I also find one of the
hazards of playing and practicing solo most of the time is that I
don't get that aural feedback -- nor any experience
reacting/adjusting on the fly. Playing in a quartet last Fall was an
"ear-opening" experience.
But I think you just need to smile
and keep going. One must practice the ensemble aspects of playing,
just as with bowing and fingering. (I'm hoping it gets easier! 
)
Dave -- deliberating some ensemble playing this Fall.
|
Bobbie
Registered User
Posts: 491
(6/26/01 9:17:26 am)
Reply
|
Re: I hate it
(for the moment)
It's easy for a gifted musician to say "quit." If you were playing
with the intention of becoming a concert artist, maybe he'd be right
about quitting if you can't play what you hear in your mind. But
it's absolutely ridiculous for an amateur to consider that kind of
advice. Part of the joy of music for amateurs- a very large part- is
the process of learning to play. It doesn't matter that it isn't
easy for you. It doesn't mean you can't do it.
Now,
practically speaking: if I can learn to play in tune, anyone can,
and I mean that sincerely. When I started I couldn't even hear that
a wrong note was wrong. I did a lot of ear training and a lot of
practicing with a sustained pitch, and later, with an electronic
tuner. "Ear training" was a great concept because I realized that
even gifted musicians take ear-training classes in college, so a) it
isn't a natural thing for all musicians, and b) it must work. And it
does. Sometimes now, when I am trying to do a long shift and can't
get it, I just have to think of the interval and then mysteriously
my brain knows where to go, with no conscious control from me. I was
at a Starker performance a few years ago and I wondered if I would
even know if he played out of tune, and just then I heard a note out
of tune! (Of course, immediately Starker stopped playing and said he
had to go change the string as it had just given out.)
The
point of all this rambling is that you shouldn't give up. Just
realize it takes extra effort for some of us to get good intonation,
and it doesn't mean we should be "listeners" instead of players.
|
TerryM
Registered
User
Posts: 437
(6/26/01 10:58:09
am)
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|
Re: I hate it
(for the moment)
I agree with the advice in the previous posts, but would like to
add that playing with another player really does make it more
difficult to judge what is going wrong, whether it is intonation or
timing, or...whatever. The first few times that I play together with
a new string player usually involves a lot of listening and
adjusting. Each of us has an idea of where the intonation should be,
but having someone else just a bit off can throw you off completely.
I used to experience this kind of anxiety more so than now, but now
I am, for the most part, getting surer of my intonation, but it has
taken time to get here.
One of the most encouraging pieces I
have read is in one of the books by the Guarnari Quartet, describing
the first time they played together. They chose an "easy" Mozart
quartet and began to play. It was awful! They were not in tune with
each other, timing was off and a whole range of ensemble problems
were encountered. They could not believe how bad they were. Keep in
mind these were advanced students, Julliard I believe, and each of
them had played concertos with orchestra and so were very advanced
players. They simple did not realize how difficult or exposed one is
in a chamber music situation. This first session took over an hour
to go over a few bars of music, so that they could adjust to each
other and to the intricacies of ensemble playing.
It can be
discouraging, but keep with it, as the rewards that follow are many.
Terry
|
RobertaJill
Registered User
Posts: 26
(6/26/01 12:18:28 pm)
Reply
|
Re: I hate it
(for the moment)
Well, OK, there I was in the Irene Sharp cello seminar at Mannes
School of music. I am an amateur who quit playing 30 years ago and
am just going back. The others in the class? 3 recent players (i.e.,
adult beginners), one member of the Toronto symphony, a whole group
of cello teachers, and a 12-year-old and a 15-year-old who obviously
will be able to be professionals if they want. So we each played in
a master class in the afternoons, and instead of just playing a
scale (which Irene said a student did last year, and that it was
fine to do that), I decided to play the Squire "Danse Rustique" I
played at a recital in April. Ouch. Ouch ouch ouch. The accompanist
took off at a faster speed than we had practiced, and I didn't hit
the right note on ANY of the shifts.
But it was OK. Someone
-- one of the cello teachers who is also an orchestra emember and
freelancer -- said to me (before the day I played), "You will play
it like you play it." I somehow managed not to be embarrassed or
dejected. I may never want to watch the video of that masterclass,
but I even think I will be able to do that -- I have decided I can
use it as a benchmark of my progress over the next year. I need to
do LOTS of ear training, but if anything, the experience confirmed
to me that I want to be a competent amateur cellist. So I just have
to work toward that goal.
Roberta
|
Eric
Registered User
Posts: 29
(6/27/01 2:51:59 pm)
Reply
|
Re: I hate it
(for the moment)
Ah.
Welcome to the love/hate club. Why, just last week
walking home after a lesson I was seized with the urge to smash my
cello against a street light; fortunately, reason prevailed. After I
got home I punched the wooden frame of my couch(first thing I found
that was suitable) and immediately felt better. The next day I
thought a lot about why my lesson went so poorly. First off, I
realized it isn't the cello I should be mad at, it was me. I hadn't
fulfilled my own expectations of what level I should be at. But
let's face it, we all set the bar pretty high. One other thing I
realized is that while it is hard for us to feel like we're
progressing when the progress is so incremental. In actual fact I'm
sure you really have progressed tremendously. We are artists, and
like all artists we are always finding fault in our work.
And never underestimate the undermining effect of
nervousness and stress. This is usually a problem I have when I go
to lessons. Also I had my first recital ever 2 weeks ago, and like
you I was amazed at my inability. Passages which I had rehearsed
over and over again suddenly became shaky. I played out of tune! My
cello squeaked! Being nervous and tense can be catastrophic. When
the left hand becomes tense playing in tune becomes much more
difficult.
Now when I practice I sometimes delibrately make
myself tense. I pretend I'm playing in carnegie hall or something.
Then I practice releasing the tension. I notice how much easier
playing becomes. So take heart, your practice has not gone to waste.
The ability is there in your head, you just have to learn to channel
it to the instrument in stressful circumstances.
Whatever
you do, don't give up. If you really love cello you would be doing
yourself a huge disservice by doing that. And you know what? You
should be glad you're going through a tough spot. Because once you
really start to play beautiful music with your cello, you'll look
back on these times and the music will sound that much
sweeter.
'nuff said.
Eric
|
Ellen
G 
Registered
User
Posts: 784
(6/27/01 3:10:17
pm)
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|
Re: I hate it
(for the moment)
I revisited a piece I'd played -- I now question use of that word
-- previously. I THOUGHT I was revisiting it, dusting it off, for an
adult recital I am supposed to be playing in. I swear it is getting
worse instead of better. Or perhaps as the performance date
approaches, I am becoming more critical. Maybe a little of both.
What really bothered me in lessons today is my inability to
see on the printed page what a trained cellist sees. For instance
some days I see notes without having proper recognition of
intervals. Some days I play notes because I recognize the intervals,
and as the piece climbs the fingerboard, I can follow the
progression logically. But if someone stopped in the middle of a
passage, and said to start at some note (say a C) above the A
harmonic, I would not be able to instantly find the spot. Geez, I
feel like I'm at my first AA meeting, confessing to the
world.
I look at my kids who see all of this stuff and
process it as effortlessly as they breathe. That would make me a
wheezing asthmatic, I suppose. Today I wished for a brain
transplant, just so I could look at EVERYTHING on the page,
recognize it all, what it means: intervals, fifths, fingerings, key
modulations, relative minors, anything someone could ask me and I
would just know it. Unfortunately the brain I wanted was already in
use elsewhere on the planet.
Do I enjoy playing? Sure. But
as an adult, it is one of the most frustrating RECREATIONAL things I
can think of at times. Other times it is the most liberating. Go
figure.
Another thing I was incredibly weak at was taking the
first note of sets of 16ths in a noodly passage I was having
intonation issues with and placing my first finger accurately with
each new set as it progressed up the scale. It's no wonder I had
intonation issues. Sometimes taking out the middle notes and
focusing on the critical first finger placement is key. Other times
taking out all the notes and merely bowing on the open strings on
which the fingered notes would be played is the key. There are a
million ways to approach this. I just wish sometimes I didn't feel
so many time constraints as a working adult. I need to work on the
piece, so I don't feel I have the luxury to do other practice
things. When in reality those other things would probably help me
reassemble the piece into a playable fashion.
Another
catharsis. I'm loaded with 'em these days.
|
Bobbie
Registered User
Posts: 496
(6/28/01 12:07:44 am)
Reply
|
Re: I hate it
(for the moment)
I've been thinking about this off and on since I read Ellen's post.
I think it comes down to this: do only certain talented individuals
have the right to make music, or does it belong to all of us? Yes, a
lot of us belong to a group that doesn't always "get it" as easily
as some of the others. When my friend Ed, now 67, was in grade
school, some kids were classed as "listeners" instead of singers.
He, a listener, was directed to stand in the group with the other
kids and mouth the words to the songs. How many would-be-musicians
class themselves as "listeners" because some or all of the musical
skills come harder to them? I should say, come harder to us, because
if they'd had that classification in my grade school, I would have
been a listener.
A lot of things about playing the cello are
REALLY hard. It is one of the hardest instruments, and most of us
are not going to be really great cellists, ever. But problems like
playing in tune are not insurmountable. Sometime in the last few
years, my former teacher said something to me like "since intonation
is no longer an issue...". Not quite true, but I no longer consider
it my biggest obstacle, and I never thought I would say
that.
There are always going to be people, and frequently
very young people, who learn faster and better than I do. One thing
that always cheers me a little, though, is remembering that even
gifted cellists had to practice to get good.
I like to
remind myself of the things that Yo Yo Ma and I have in common: 1)
we are the same age, and 2) we both get great joy from playing the
cello.
|
DoDahlberg
Moderator
Posts: 101
(6/28/01 4:49:56 am)
Reply
|
re: Bobbie's Yo
Yo Ma's comment
I always remember this, too. I'm roughly the same age as Yo Yo,
too, but he started playing cello when he was 3...I started when I
was 3(6).
Dorie |
JanJan2
Registered User
Posts: 182
(6/28/01 7:03:29 am)
Reply
|
Re: I hate it
(for the moment)
<<What really bothered me in lessons today was my inability
to see on the printed page what a trained cellist
sees.>>
And I was naive enough to think I was the
*only* one stuggling with this! Sometimes I just feel stupid -
that's the best word for it. Stupid. And I know I'm not. It's only
how I FEEL! Cello study is at once humbling and
exhilarating.
Janet |
Ellen
G
Registered
User
Posts: 786
(6/28/01 7:28:54
am)
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|
Windows &
teachers & p.s.
You grow up in a house that speaks one language; that is your
mother tongue. You can speak it without being able to identify the
parts of speech, or without the ability to explain what subjunctives
are even though you use them daily. Only when you take a course in
grammar do you actually learn about what you have been doing all
along. (Or if you have a parent who happens to be geeky about that
sort of thing.)
You can get a music teacher who gets you to
read notes, probably key signature. I never had one that thought
relative minors was important. You could probably ask a bunch of
folks to identify a key signature with no sharps or flats, and I
daresay a fair number would NOT say C major or A minor.
I
think most people have the capacity to learn to play music. But my
head was a lot clearer and open to learning these things as a child
than it is now. This is an adult board, and I think what a lot of us
are battling with is everything we are trying to learn NOW with very
crowded heads. And as Arnold Steinhardt points out, there is a
window when the muscles and the brain are at their optimum capacity
to work together. And it's not when we're 36 or 45.
This
morning I sat down at the cello, thought slowly through an "easy"
movement of a Bach Suite, and very nicely thought about my whole and
half steps, 1-1 shift up and 4-4 down where possible, the totality
of what I was doing and realized with a clear head, I can do it. How
often does this happen? How often on Wednesday at 1:30 does it
happen, which is when I have my lesson? Working it out with nobody
staring at me waiting for me to "get it" is easier for me.
Incidentally, my tone has improved even if my ability to think
through intervals isn't consistently in my toy chest.
I see
smart people who think they have no aptitude for something, and in
some cases it is probably contributed to by a left/right brain
thing, but in many cases it is poor teaching. Someone can't teach
what they don't understand, or won't teach what they think you don't
need to know. There are a lot of pitfalls in cello that you don't
realize if you haven't achieved a high enough level. The angle of
the hand in some positions is less critical than it is when you need
to play chords and double stops and you try to use that same angle
that nobody bothered to tell you was bad. If your teacher never ran
into music that required this, she has no understanding of why the
fundamentals she's teaching are poor.
Opinion, as
always.
p.s. I'm taking into account that a fair number of
people studying cello aren't with a conservatory trained
professional cellist. Some people only have available to them a
violinist with a limited knowledge of cello, or in my flashbacks
(you know, when the lines get all wavy and the funny music starts)
where I was with public school string teachers who, come to think of
it, were all violinists! Or some may be working with a cello
hobbyist like some of us, whose knowledge is limited but can offer
more to them than they could glean on their own.
Edited by: Ellen
G at: 6/28/01 8:19:48 am
|
Bobbie
Registered User
Posts: 497
(6/28/01 8:54:13 am)
Reply
|
Re: Windows
& teachers & p.s.
Where to begin? Ellen, you make so many points in one
post!
My teacher always makes me play a piece through in
totality before I can put it away. She says that the exercise of
playing it (more or less) right under the pressure of having her sit
there and listen is needed in order for your brain to make all the
connections in learning the music. I don't know if anyone has done
any scientific studies on that, but I quote my own college
professors when I tell students that taking the final exam is part
of the learning process because it cements in what they have
learned, even if they aced all of the hour exams. It's almost always
easier to have everything come together when no one else is there to
run interference.
Children start young with playing and then
"performing" completed pieces, and often playing in recitals, and
for many of them it becomes a much more natural thing than it is for
us. In Suzuki, children memorize and play through pieces in entirety
many times, both alone and in groups, and really do learn the
language. For us, it is always going to be a second language. But,
Ellen, those kids aren't thinking about intervals, either. Dorie
probably knows if this is true, but I think the kind of brain power
it takes to understand the mechanics of music probably peaks beyond
childhood.
We have certain advantages as adults. As John
Holt quotes someone saying, "we can find problems, and think up
solutions." I find myself increasingly able to do this. That is, to
analyze why I can't do something and figure out what is going on,
and sometimes even fix it.
I think you are right about
teachers, in that the teacher needs to have a good understanding of
the mechanics of cello playing, and how to teach it, and how to
teach adults. I have a friend who quit violin after three years
because she had never learned to tune her own violin. She thought
that meant that she was not capable of learning. This particular
teacher is still tuning for children far past three years, and I'm
sure it never occurred to her that she was making an adult feel
incompetent, but she was.
In almost all ways, learning to
play as a child is easier. So? If we didn't learn to play as
children, does that mean now we can't? I know you aren't saying
that, Ellen. But it always bothers me to think anyone would quit
playing because it is harder than it "should" be. So what if it
takes me twice as long to learn? I'm still going to know more at the
end of ten years than I will if I don't try.
|
RobertaJill
Registered User
Posts: 29
(6/28/01 9:20:00 am)
Reply
|
Re: love/hate
and adult amateurs
I can relate to almost everything people here have said, about the
frustrations of adults trying to learn to play the cello. I played
for nine years, from the age of 9 to 18, and while I never wanted to
quit I never really wanted to work at it much either. After thirty
years of not playing, here I am trying to play again. In some ways,
I think I am a BETTER student of music. I now understand what
practicing is for, and don't find it boring. At the same time, it is
often hard to find time to practice. I now know what the music
should sound like, and can listen to recordings and perceive
differences in bowings, etc. And the teacher I have now is convinced
that knowing the intervals you are playing helps you get them in
tune, and I don't feel I got any real training in theory at all as a
kid.
On the other hand, if my intonation doesn't improve soon
I may gnaw my way through the fingerboard to the sound
post.
Roberta
|
Ellen
G
Registered
User
Posts: 788
(6/28/01 10:53:20
am)
Reply
|
Clarification
What I think I'm saying isn't always what someone else hears, so
I'm glad we have a chance to work through this.
What I mean
is that someone can play a piece without understanding what they are
doing. Look at the number of people who follow fingerings and play a
1 and 3 because the book says to. That's what I'm talking about. You
give that same person a piece of music with no fingerings in it and
chances are they will jump before first and fourth position. Can
they play it? Sure. But you watch someone with a good understanding
of what they're doing and they will carefully place the hand, being
aware of economy of movement, intervals, fifths, things that make
their life easier which ALSO means that the piece is going to be
played more smoothly and musically. All the 1's and 3's in the world
won't help you in a piece like "Coriolan" if you don't know where
the 1 and 3 have to be placed!!!
Again, not to keep bringing
my kids into it but it is absolutely fascinating for me to work with
the two of them, see myself, and watch Monica work with all three of
us. Our training should be the same. The thing is Monica knows what
she tells us, but she cannot see the connections that are being made
in our heads. She addresses Stef in terms of upper third, lower
second, and Stef zooms right in. Not me. I have to picture what
fingers are on what notes. If my first finger is on a C#, I have to
think about where the intervals are in order to know my range and
what finger is going to land on an E or E flat. Never is that more
pronounced than in chamber music which HAS NO FINGERINGS written in.
Monica assumes I know what she has taught me. She sees me play using
the right fingers and hears a good tone (sometimes). She doesn't
know what's going on in my head until I tell her something and she
says, "Oh, I thought you knew that." I appeared to have.
Ha!
Andrea is more like I am. She processes things slowly.
There's a fair amount of trial and error reaching for a note. Stef
always places the hand and knows exactly where she is and where
she's going. She can explain to me a variety of ways to finger a
passage and why each has merit or problems. She also knows my
personal weaknesses and usually suggests "the sure thing" for ME,
which is different for her. I want to be like her when I grow up. I
want to keep focusing on the better fingerings so they WILL become
natural.
When I talk about some difficulties reading, just so
you don't think I'm a total idiot, I have problems with the notes
above the harmonics. I don't spend a lot of time there. When I am
playing something which has a quick passage that moves in and moves
out of thumb, I get there and back. But it's not a comfortable place
for me until I work with it constantly. Which I never do. I start
thumb position books but I fall into the routine of having all kinds
of time to place my hand and working within those patterns. Then I
abandon it, with no connections made in my head, which sorta
wouldn't help anyway because the next time I'm headed for thumb I
don't have all the time in the world to set up. I have real music in
front of me with an 8th rest if I'm lucky. More books need to move
you in and out of clefs and positions instead of parking you there.
It really lis the fluidity that makes it come together, at least for
me.
I hear a voice. It says, "That's what scales are for."
GO AWAY!!
|
Bobbie
Registered User
Posts: 498
(6/28/01 11:30:37 am)
Reply
|
Re:
Clarification
I think I understand what you are saying, Ellen. I'm just saying
that while one teacher might think 1 and 3 is the best fingering,
another might equally successfully use a different fingering. Even,
or maybe I should say especially, up in thumb position, where an
individual's handshape makes some fingerings so much better or worse
than others. I have trouble with recognising intervals across the
strings, but I can easily recognise them in the music. I just have
to concentrate on thinking about that if I want to make the
connection. I think some musicians very naturally have an innate
understanding of intervals, and these are the people who play very
well by ear. But I don't think that is an age thing. I think it is a
genetic thing, and not even all gifted musicians have it.
I'm working on Sevcik Op. 8 shifting now. The pattern in the
exercise I'm working on is 1 on the low D, then shift to 1 a sixth
higher on the C string (on B), play C and D in position, shift back
to 1 on the low D, then 3 on the E, then shift to 3 on D. After the
pattern repeats on the low E you change to shifting to a thumb
instead of a 1, so the shifts are always either a sixth to thumb or
an octave to 2, up to G on the C string, and then you change to the
G string and do it all over again. Anyway, to make a long
explanation short, I can do this just fine if I watch my hand.
Spatially I understand the fingerboard pretty well. I do much less
well when I don't look, and try to read the music and concentrate on
the interval or the pitch (I do better with the interval unless I
play it in first position to get the pitch in my ear.) Anyway, these
are good exercises for jumping around, as you say, because you don't
get to go up to thumb position and just stay there, pretending you
are a violinist. My teacher told me that her all time top student,
who was an extremely gifted child, had trouble with the lower
strings on these exercises. I know this girl and she is a terrific
cellist who started at five after begging for an instrument for
several years. Which just goes to show you that some things are hard
for everyone.
I have a student who is almost 13. I have
taught her for five years, except that she started for three months
with my former teacher and has gone last summer and this to my own
teacher. She is very musical and has a better sense of pitch and
rhythm and musicality then I'll ever have. Last fall she was at the
stage of knowing how to shift, but not liking to go into position
unless she had to, and then using 1st and 4th exclusively if she
could get away with it. Through the year she slowly made the
transition to fluency in the intermediate positions, and is now very
comfortable in 2nd and 3rd as well, and getting there in the higher
positions. All I did to make this happen was make her play things in
those positions. (Squire etudes, primarily.) For her, that innate
understanding of where a pitch is is almost a handicap, because she
doesn't need to have her hand in the right position or use the right
finger to find it, and then she ends up with weird positions and
fingerings if left to her own devices.
Anyway, I think what
I'm trying to say is that there are a lot of ways to develop these
skills, the ones that can be learned. And there are ways to learn
the things that other people don't have to learn. Our challenge as
adult learners is to figure out what we are not getting and find a
way to "get it."
|
Sorefingers
Registered User
Posts: 105
(7/1/01 6:59:20 am)
Reply
|
Re:
Clarification
Bobbie, do you know how/where the Sevcik can be obtained? I'm
having trouble locating copies for cello - My usual source (Shar)has
it listed as out of print, and my local shops don't carry it. I can
find it easily enough for violin, but don't want to have to
transpose if I don't have to. I have started with a new teacher and
she feels it would be beneficial for me and my friend.
|
Bobbie
Registered User
Posts: 504
(7/1/01 6:41:45 pm)
Reply
|
Re:
Clarification
Hutchins and Rea has them, but you need to be specific about which
one as there are several. Op. 8 is changes of position (shifting)
and Op. 3 is 40 variations, which is very good for bow control.
There are two others but I'm not familiar with them.
|
Sorefingers
Registered User
Posts: 106
(7/1/01 10:00:35 pm)
Reply
|
Re:
Clarification
Thanks Bobbie ! I new resource for music & teaching materials -
yay !!! Prices aren't bad either.
My friend will be tickled
pink. She's a pianist as well, and loves to spend hours on finger
drills and scales - this seems like just her cup of tea.
|
Bobbie
Registered User
Posts: 508
(7/1/01 10:04:14 pm)
Reply
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Re:
Clarification
I really have been pleased with Hutchins and Rea. They are fairly
quick and have a really nice selection of music.
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