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CelloBass
Registered User
Posts: 1
(6/29/01 11:09:08 am)
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Where to place
the thumb behind the neck?
I post my question here because it is education related... after
having played the double bass for more than 20 years, I tried a
cello four weeks ago, and it was so much fun that I bought one and
got a teacher. However, it will take another 2 or 3 months until she
will have time to begin our lessons. In the meantime I bought a
cello method and read a lot of resources in the Internet. All stress
again and again that it is most important that the thumb has to be
placed opposite to the second finger - I am talking about positions
1 - 3. I have a problem with this thumb posture because I have a
very flexible thumb nuckle (the big one that is almost in your
hand). When I place the thumb opposite to the second finger, the
thumb is turned, and it touches the neck slightly with its side. The
tourque has to be compensated by the muscles. It hurts when I play,
and it hurts even the next day. Things get even worse when I play a
halftone lower with the first finger (I think it is called wide
position). Thumb opposite to the first finger works perfectly on the
bass and on the cello. And, obviously nobody plays with second
finger opposite to thumb. I have watched many cellists on TV,
amongst them were Rostropowitch and Maisky, and all of them had the
first finger opposite to the thumb, which helps getting a wide and
free vibrato. My question is: Am I doing wrong when I get used to
playing with the first finger opposite to the thumb? Are there any
'special' reasons why you should avoid this?
Horst
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Paul
Tseng ICS Staff 
Administrator
Posts: 1426
(6/29/01 7:16:33 pm)
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Re: Where to
place the thumb behind the neck?
The most important thing about the left thumb is that you don't
squeeze the neck of the cello, where ever you place it.
That
said, I feel that generally the thumb should easily lie somewhere
between behind 1 and 2. I say this loosely as it really matters most
that you are relaxed and everyone's hands are
different.
Stephen Kates showed me how his thumb changes
place depending on what finger he's playing on.
With Channing
Robbins and Pantaleyev, they showed my that I didn't even need to
have to use the thumb to "hold the neck" or to hold down a note.
Look at the thumb muscle and watch how it contracts and
bulges the more you move it towards your 2nd and 3rd
finger.
Now let it move behind your 1st finger. What happened
to that muscle? It relaxed and the bulge disappeared.
It's
like flexing your bisceps. When the muscle is conctracted it is less
relaxed. What role does the left thumb play in 1-4th positions?
Truthfuly, not much. The only thing my thumb does is assist in
balance but never in pressure or squeezing. The weight of your arm
is more than enough to hold the string down without a
self-cancelling vector of the thumb pushing in the opposite
direction.
Just let your left hand hang on the fingerboard
and you'll see how relaxed your entire left hand is. There is more
than enough downward weight to hold down the string.
To
summarize, don't obsess with where you place your thumb. Be
concerned with how and why you place it. It must be relaxed and it
must not interfere with your playing.
Best wishes. I remember
my first time playing for Leonard Rose. Just before I went into his
studio, he was giving a Bass player a lesson.
Paul Tseng
My Website
Free Cello
Music!
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CelloBass
Registered User
Posts: 2
(6/29/01 7:47:47 pm)
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Re: Where to
place the thumb behind the neck?
Paul,
thanks a lot for your great reply. Actually I was
hoping you would say something like that. :-) On the bass, the
weight of your left arm playes indeed a big role - unfortunately not
all teachers and players are aware of that. If the setup is perfect,
you can remove the thumb on the bass as well, but the balance of
your posture has to be perfect. Normally, the thumb helps to balance
the bass which requires much less pressure than squeezing the
strings does - this should be done by the weight of the arm because
you get it for free. You brought me to the idea of why not to use
the same technique on the cello, and actually this is what I do.
Playing technical passages my thumb finds its most relaxed position
somewhere at 1, playing espressivo sometimes it helps to shift the
thumb near 3... I really hope that my future teacher will agree with
me in those details. I think I found the reason why 'thumb opposite
to 2' is often mentioned as a rule. The second finger is never moved
when you stay within a position, but the first finger is moved down
a halftone from time to time. So, if you place the thumb opposite to
2, your left hand might perhaps get the feeling for the positions
easier because the thumb and 2 are a firm 'reference'. Anyway, I
don't need it. Things go on pretty well. I am practising the prelude
of the first Bach suite to get the feeling for the lower positions,
and the first bars of Haydn's D-major concerto already sound like
Haydn. It works much better than I have ever expected. But I have
almost no bowing technique because I play the German bow on the
bass. There will be much work to do, it is a new challenge, and it
is fun, which is the main thing.
Regards,
Horst
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Victor
Sazer
Registered
User
Posts: 94
(7/4/01 3:05:55
pm)
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Thumb???
You might try playing without having you thumb touch the neck of
the cello at all. Let it go where it wants to. It will not always be
in the same place. This will allow greatest flexibility to adjust
your whole hand/arm unit for optimal balance as you play each
note.
Paul Tseng describes Stephen Kates showing him how his
thumb changes place depending on what finger he's playing on. This
demonstrates Kates' sensitivity to the need to achieve optimal
balance as he plays on each finger.
In my opinion, the
widely taught approach of teaching students to ALWAYS keep their
hand in a "cello position" with fingers spread apart to be over the
notes and to ALWAYS keep the thumb on the neck opposite the second
finger (or any other finger) is basically flawed.
It limits
flexibility, creates unneeded tension, encourages clutching and
squeezing of the thumb against the fingerboard and generally teaches
students to play out of tune from the very beginning.
Worst
of all, is when tapes are put on the fingerboard to indicate where
the notes are supposed to be!
There are better ways.
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Sasha
A M
Registered
User
Posts: 57
(7/6/01 2:28:11
pm)
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tapes and free
playing
hi victor!
the tapes are not always a bad thing. if a young
pupil doesnt have yet a good sense of intonation, there has to be a
way to ensure that he is hearing right pitches when he is practising
at home.
it hink it is more a question of how to use the
tapes. if the fingers are locked on the tapes then it of course
damages the freedom of playing.
but, i think playing in tune
is in the end a physical matter. you must have good tactile memory
in order to play in tune. so if one uses tapes to point out where
the finger has to land, then it develops the tactile memory and the
most rudimentary intonation. the fingers can be freely moving over
the fingerboard, but you want to guide them to very exact places in
the end, dont you? different from keeping the fingers over the
tapes.
of course the pupil must be guided to first watch the
fingers and listen to the result, then try the same without looking
at the fingers.
sasha
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Victor
Sazer
Registered
User
Posts: 98
(7/7/01 5:15:27
pm)
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tapes and free
playing
Greetings Sasha,
Please see my comments on the Cello Chat board
in response to someone’s question about measurements for placing
tapes.
I find it more productive to start beginners with
musical references rather than mechanical ones. I prefer that they
use their ears and trust their bodies rather than feel for tapes.
The easiest interval to hear is the octave. A good starting
place is to have the student match (for example) the G on the D
string with the 2nd finger, with the open G. If the student can do
this with one finger, is there any reason he/she can’t do it with
each of the other fingers?
A good next step is to establish
the tactile sense and accurate intonation of the half step pattern
between the octave and the leading tone (as well as between 3rd to
4th degrees) of the major scale pattern.
The Cello Chat
discussion includes suggestions for succeeding steps. I find that
since using this kind of approach, students progress much more
rapidly, play in tune from the very beginning, play with greater
freedom and are fearless about playing all over the cello.
I
do not see the virtue in the tradition of starting in the
“so-called” first position. I do not even discuss “positions” with
my students. They do learn however, that they can play any note with
any finger anywhere on the cello.
If you are inclined to
experiment with this kind of approach, I would be very interested in
hearing about your results.
Best wishes,
Vic
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