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ruthann
Registered User
Posts: 497
(6/19/01 11:18:22 am)
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Help! New 5 year
old student
She's quite the little cutie, and very keen. But the physical
difficulties of playing the cello seem a bit much for her. Her
fingers are tiny. She can spread them, etc., but doesn't have much
strength. Getting the string pressed down enough to make a clear
sound marginal on the A, non-existant anywhere else. I've suggested
she squeeze a rubber ball for some hand strengthening. What else can
anyone suggest?
I've never started a child this young, I
usually restrict myself to kids 10 and up. But this one was very
keen, youngest in a quite musical family. Relating isn't a problem.
I started my own kids on Suzuki violin at age three, so I'm well
aware of issues like attention span and understanding difficult
concepts. The hand strength issue didn't arise with my little
violinists.
This little cello has Pirastro Chromcor strings
on it. Would a softer string like the Tomastic Dominant be easier on
the hand?
Any and all suggestions would be much appreciated.
cello_suttonr@hotmail.com |
Bobbie
Registered User
Posts: 478
(6/19/01 11:57:40 am)
Reply
|
Re: Help! New 5
year old student
I don't know if it is true for cello strings, but I think on
guitars gut strings are supposed to be easier on the fingers.
I
think Eudoxa strings come in fractional sizes. The downside is that
they are a lot harder to tune, but I'm assuming with a five year old
that the parents do the tuning.
Also, you might look at the bow.
The small fiberglass bows are quite heavy and slippery.
I
have kind of a related question regarding practice for young
beginners. Mine isn't that young- he's 7 1/2. But I just took a look
at a website (the site of the month in the May-June Newsletter) that
tells parents not to worry about practice for the first year. From a
psychological viewpoint that seems like a good idea but from a
physical one (like the need to strengthen the fingers) it seems like
a bad idea. I've compromised in telling him to do things that are
fun, like siren sounds and seeing how fast a tremolo he can do with
the bow. What do you do with the little ones as far as practice
goes?
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ruthann
Registered User
Posts: 498
(6/19/01 2:03:02 pm)
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Re: Don't worry
about practicing????
I couldn't disagree more! Without practice there will be no
advancement. Sure it's a good idea to think up fun things to do that
incorporate the things that need to be worked on.
I started
each of my children at age three on violin. At that age it takes
about a year to learn twinkle, but meanwhile you are developing a
lot of physical skills and "learning how to learn." Dr. Suzuki said
you only need to practice on the days you eat. By all means keep
practice sessions short and fun, but the more you play, the better
you get.
Both my kids practice about 4-5 days a week(soccer
schedule permitting!), my 7 year old for about 15-20 minutes, my 10
year old for 30-45 minutes. I completely supervise each practice
session. For both kids, it's something they do with mom. They rarely
say they don't want to practice, although that does happen. If they
are really tired or just too busy and need some down time, I don't
insist they practice. But I try not to let more than one day go by
without having them play, otherwise they "forget" too
much.
My rule of thumb is they should be practicing almost
every day for the length of time their lesson is. My kids share an
hour lesson 20/40 and that's about how much time it takes to
practice the weekly assignments.
cello_suttonr@hotmail.com |
CordulaR
Registered User
Posts: 74
(6/20/01 2:01:34 am)
Reply
|
left hand
strenght
an excercise/game I like for strengthening the left hand is the Big
Hungry Plastic Eater. You take a plastic bag between your fingers
and without the help of your other hand you 'eat it all up', meaning
you get it inside of your hand as much as possible. When you do it
several times it really helps the grasping muscles. I suggest them
at least 3 meals a day and lots of snacks in between, as a Big
Plastic Eater is always hungry.
For smaller hands I use a very
thin plastic sheet, like the ones they give you when you get your
clothes drycleaned.
I hope this makes any sense, it's easier to
demontrate than to describe.
Cordula
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Bobbie
Registered User
Posts: 480
(6/20/01 8:34:05 am)
Reply
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Re: Don't worry
about practicing????
Ruthann, you said you "completely supervise each practice session."
That's the key. But how many parents do that? Or even know how to?
We did borrow from Suzuki a little and the mom is going to try
learning the cello for awhile and practice with her son.
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ruthann
Registered User
Posts: 502
(6/20/01 11:55:01 am)
Reply
|
Re: Don't worry
about practicing????
Oh, I get it now. I thought that you had a 7 year old son who was
starting cello, rather than a student. You, of course, would
supervise practice for your own children.
When I started my
daughter on violin, the local suzuki violin teacher (and personal
friend) had a policy of requiring a parent to take a 3-4 session
parent class before accepting a new student. I was the only string
player in that class, and one other mom was an accomplished musician
(sax). I learned a lot. Our teacher emphasized what a commitment the
parent has to make to the suzuki process in order for it to work. As
I watched the other moms struggle to hold a violin in the correct
position, I got a good feeling for how physically difficult playing
a string instrument is. Hopefully all the other parents did
too.
In the 7 years that I've been a suzuki mom, I've learned
to figure out pretty quickly which newcomers will stick with it and
which won't. It's up to the parents, completely. If they are
actively involved and working with their children on a regular basis
the prognosis is very good.
Our local suzuki violin teachers
are what inspired me to take suzuki training myself. I shamelessly
borrow from my children's teacher any ideas that I think might work
for my cello students. I also freely share any ideas I pick up along
the way. I haven't instituted a parent class of my own - I only ever
have a handful of students at any given time, but I do try to
emphasize to each parent what a commitment they ought to make to
help their child succeed.
Phyllis Young's book, "Playing the
String Game" has lots of really great games and techniques. It's a
wonderful resource.
cello_suttonr@hotmail.com |
Bobbie
Registered User
Posts: 481
(6/20/01 12:27:17 pm)
Reply
|
Re: Don't worry
about practicing????
I have to admit that I didn't do very well supervising my own
children in practice, but they were older when they started. With
the younger one, I did try to insist that she practiced, but it was
always a struggle, and I can see why parents are ready to let the
kid quit after a short time. It just isn't worth it if it becomes an
unpleasant experience for everyone.
This child is only the
second child I've taught from the beginning, and the first had a mom
who was at home and was herself a musician. This boy's mother is a
professional with a five day a week, full-time job, and two other
sons with activities, and although she really wants her son to play,
if getting him to practice ruins what time she has to spend with
him, I think she will soon give up on it.
Ruthann, what do you do with your children that helps them to
enjoy the practice? Do you play with them, or just direct their
practice?
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ruthann
Registered User
Posts: 504
(6/20/01 1:37:30 pm)
Reply
|
Re: Don't worry
about practicing????
"what do you do with your children that helps them to enjoy the
practice?"
This requires some thought!
When we first
started down this road, I had a 3 year old, a baby and a full time
job. In some ways I think the violin practice helped me to focus
attention on my daughter. Violin practice was something that the two
of us did together, with me totally focused on her. There were lots
of little games involved.
We have a weekly violin group
session (not during summer) which also gives some social advantages
to violin playing. But that I mean the kids have friends at the
group that they see every friday, and of course there is a treat
served at the end.
I try to give them a variety of things to
do for each practice session. We usually start with a Creative
Ability Development exercise - they make up their own song to play
with a CD. There's usually a tonalization exercise, a technical
exercise, then we work on pieces. There's always a Suzuki piece, and
review of old pieces and usually there's a fiddle song, or a Disney
movie song, etc. to work on. We finish up with a note
reading/sightreading exercise and a page from a theory workbook.
They usually get a cookie or small piece of candy when they
finish.
So let's see - I use bribery, variety, focused
attention, and stickers! Each week they get a practice grid where
they put a sticker down for each item they work on each day. Young
Musicians carries a very nice practice book geared toward Suzuki
method. I buy stickers in large quantities from educational resource
stores. We listen to our suzuki CDs in the car, whenever I take them
anywhere.
Maybe it's attitude. I love to play, I often do
little duets with the kids, sometimes on their little violins
violins, sometimes on the cello. I think of these practise sessions
as sharing a gift that I love with my kids (although at 10, my
daughter can occasionally suck all the love out of any situation!).
We talk a lot about how much we like a particular song or how much
fun something is to play.
For your student with the busy mom,
the attraction might be that this is 15 minutes where he has mom's
undivided attention, where they can share a joy of music. And by all
means offer cookies and stickers!
cello_suttonr@hotmail.com |
Sasha
A M
Registered
User
Posts: 53
(6/20/01 2:26:51
pm)
Reply
|
beginning with a
3 year old (or 1!)
hello!
i have a six-year old boy pupil who was not even 4
when we started. in the beginning the lessons were 2-10 minutes
long. by the way i use suzuki method. his dad was on my cello
lessons half a year prior, and the son had been listening to tapes,
brainwashed etc. in the beginning we did wonders on open strings.
then we used 1 finger in 4th pos to play same "fifths songs". his
cello was 1/10, not very good one. after a year we got a small 1/4
which is very good instrument, very well set up to be completely
playable from 1st to 5th pos.
i think the strenght is not an
issue to be needing any exercises etc. if the bow stroke is solid
the left hand doesnt need to press so hard. first i would check the
set up on the cello. some months ago i filed the bridge and the
saddle on a pupils cello for the first time, to bring the strings
nearer the fingerboard, and it was succesful. anyone can do that, i
think.
now i have a 1 year old cello pupil at home. my
daughter has had a smalla fiddle as a toy since she was 3 months,
and since me and my wife are both cellists, she has been trying to
copy our playing. shes fantastic! she sits on the floor, takes the
fiddle to the right playing position and starts to play (with 1/8
violin bow)! she bows between the bridge and fingerboard and does
left hand pizz at the same time between 1st and 100th position. she
explores also both thumb and toe position, and bows also ricochet,
spiccato, col legno tratto and battuto, plus many rarely heard
special effects. sometimes the concert lasts for minutes and she
applauds for herself afterwards.
i sure hope she will keep
being interested on cello playing for some years!
sasha
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Kidnotes
Registered User
Posts: 18
(6/20/01 11:31:52 pm)
Reply
|
New 5 year old
student
We just watched the tape we made of my then 4 year old's first
notes on her cello, and there were absolutely no distinguishable
notes! However, it didn't take more than a few weeks before she had
improved and you could at least recognize that the notes were
changing. Four months later she was doing her twinkles with gusto
and she hasn't stopped since.
I believe that her cello has
Thomastik Dominant strings on it. She still has her original 1/8
size cello, and she has literally grown into it, fingers and
all.
We had some real struggles with practice at the
beginning, because she expected to hear songs immediately, and those
non-descript first notes were pretty disappointing after listening
to her sister's violin for 2 years, but we made it through (however,
not without a few threats to send Rosie the cello back to Topeka,
KS). The biggest help to us was the teacher's 100 day practice club.
Everyone one who made it to 100 days in a row got a gold "100" pin
and a swim party at a hot springs pool.
I agree with the
other Suzuki moms, bribery, stickers, game after game, those work
very well. You have to work hard to keep ahead of your kids. My
girls still accuse me of not making practice fun, and I have lots of
games and gimics...they just keep wanting new ones!
Edited by: Kidnotes
at: 6/20/01 11:33:37 pm
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cellofreak1286
Registered User
Posts: 57
(6/21/01 8:29:53 am)
Reply
|
how young is too
young
I know I shouldn't be posting on this board, I am 14. But I feel
some need to comment on this issue. I started playing when I was 11
and have taken off since. I never practiced for the first year but
then something "clicked" and my musical interests took off. Since
then I have accomplished so much including playing with a very
prestigioius youth symphony as well as gigging on my own. I have
always thought that I would have loved it if my parents started me
on the cello earlier than I did, but when I really think about it, I
don't think that I would be where I am now had they done so. For
some childern, myself included, they need something to rebel against
and start to break their ties with their wonderful but controlling
parents. I know that I would have rebelled against cello immediatey.
To me it seems that by giving your child a violin or instrument in
their young age seems to say "you are going to be an accomplished
musician some day" leaving the child very small room for their own
thoughts possibly causing more rebellion. My parents, on the other
hand, always beat into my head "Never be a musician and never marry
a muscian" and guess what, I am on that long and windy road to being
a musician and I can bet you that I will marry one too.
I
doubt many of you understand what I was saying up their, but here's
question I have that many of you may be able to answer. Here it is.
Why start your child on the violin or cello when they are two and
have it take them a year to learn twinkle twinkle instead of
starting them when they are 10 and can learn twinkle twinkle and a
minuet in two weeks?
looking forward to hear your
responses
rachel
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Bobbie
Registered User
Posts: 483
(6/21/01 9:02:40 am)
Reply
|
Re: how young is
too young
Rachel, I sort of agree with you. My daughter started at 10 with a
Suzuki teacher who starts kids at 3 or 4, and by 10 1/2 she was
doing almost as well as the kids who had been playing for four
years. On the other hand, some kids actually beg to start playing
long before 10 or 11, and I think that they should be able to start
earlier. That's one reason I feel that if practice becomes a "Do it
or else" situation, maybe that child shouldn't be playing an
instrument. (I don't have a problem with "Do it or else" for older
kids, because at 10 or 12 or 14 I think you can understand that you
have to practice to be able to play, even though maybe you don't
always want to practice." But I don't want any child's memory of
music to be "My mother made me take lessons but I hated it and quit
as soon as I could."
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JanJan2
Registered User
Posts: 175
(6/21/01 9:09:44 am)
Reply
|
Rachel - no age
limits on THIS board . . .
this one's for everyone! Post away, please!
Janet |
ruthann
Registered User
Posts: 507
(6/21/01 12:00:59 pm)
Reply
|
Re: Rachel - no
age limits on THIS board . . .
Rachel - I began playing at 8 and music is a huge source of joy and
fulfillment to me. I wanted to give my children the chance to
experience that joy and fulfillment. I took my daughter to a concert
given by our local suzuki group just after she turned three. She was
so incredibly turned on, she wanted to run up on stage and join them
right then. Up until that point I did worry that I might be
"projecting." But the love on music is very real in my
kids.
As for why start them early when they don't progress
very quickly: It's the PROCESS, not the product, that counts. These
little ones are having a great time making what music they can given
their intellect and physical capabilities. Music brings immense joy.
Why not share that with your three year old? Why deny them until
they're ten?
I don't expect the kids to be pros when they
grow up, but I do expect they'll love music for the rest of their
lives. I'm giving them a gift that was given to me as a child, a
gift that means more to me than I can say.
cello_suttonr@hotmail.com |
cellofreak1286
Registered User
Posts: 58
(6/21/01 12:49:36 pm)
Reply
|
love of
music
I am glad to hear that your children showed an interest in music
before you started them on violin. Unfortunatly most of my
experiences in playing with youth symophonies etc. is that most of
the really good violinists, violists, even some cellists started
when they were very young and didn't know too much about music.
Their parents pushed them into it and won't let them get out of it.
I can understand that if you have a child of extreme tallent you
feel some responsibility to nurture that gift, but if I ever have
children of my own, they will not be successful because of me, they
will be successful inspite of me. Thanks for your views.
-Rachel
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cellogram
Registered User
Posts: 2
(6/25/01 12:23:27 am)
Reply
|
Re: love of
music
Rachel, If the people in your youth symphonies started at an early
age and are really good as you have stated says alot for early
learning. they may have had pushy parents, etc. but the old saying
of You can lead a horse to water but cannot make him drink holds
true for music instruction also. Their parents may be pushing them ,
threatening them, etc. but... I bet there is a part of them that is
just complaining about that end. If they really didn;t want to play
in symphony's and other musical orchestra's they could easily blow
their audition or just generally play lousy. I think their is alot
more to their complaints about pushy parents. They may not admit it
but they are glad for the most part they can play the way they
do.Most parents start their children on early music lessons for the
enjoyment the child has in doing that. Itis unfortunate that you did
not have that as a young child. Since you enjoy it so much now. You
would have enjoyed it then!!!
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cellogram
Registered User
Posts: 3
(6/25/01 12:34:58 am)
Reply
|
Re: love of
music and young cello learning
I forgot to add. My grand daughter showed an interest in learning
the cello at age four. When she was five we purchased a small cello.
I did not take her a year to learn twinkle. she played it in one
lesson. We are half way thru a suzuki book and other songs too. She
likes cello fiddling as she calls it and we just have fun together
playing. She enjoys and challenges herself learning the songs that
she sings and just has kid fun with it. I don;t have HOPESS and
Dreams of this cello queen some day. This is about fun, challenges
and doing something useful with your life. I know other cello and
violin kids too that are quite accomplished. There is a young seven
year old lady on book three with many cello sonata's under her belt.
She just loves playing and happens to have a mom that supports her
in that.
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lblake
Registered
User
Posts: 392
(6/25/01 5:06:18
am)
Reply
|
Re: love of
music and young cello learning
When I was young, my parents started me on piano lessons (probably
at the teacher's suggestion) when I started climbing onto the piano
bench next to my older brother and trying to play. (I actually
started on a duet with him). Looking back, that was a capital idea.
I was interested.
Then, they made me practice every day,
when my friends and two of three brothers were outside playing. HUGE
failure. I begged to practice after dark, before bed, when I
couldn't be outside playing anyway, or at least after dinner so I'd
get to play some outside (still can't imagine what would have been
wrong with that). But, no, mom insisted I practice immediately after
school, when my normal routine was to go outside and play with my
brothers and friends. (my older brother, the piano player, liked
reading books or playing piano better than playing with friends, so
he practiced whenever mom wanted him to.)
After a couple
years of sitting at the piano, refusing to play a note, my lessons
ceased and I never had lessons on anything again, since, after all,
I was such a rotten, lazy student. They did let me play cello when I
wanted to, at school, but, of course, no lessons. And, no interest
in cello by my parents.
What's amazing to me is that when I
started cello as an adult, and I practice in front of them, they are
amazed to see me practicing - and they still don't have any idea why
I wouldn't practice piano. Wow.
Anyway - my point is, the
specific TIME designated to practice should also be considered
carefully. I enjoyed the piano. I just liked playing outside
immediately after school better, God forbid.
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Ellen
G 
Registered
User
Posts: 780
(6/25/01 11:00:03
am)
Reply
|
Your results may
vary...
My approach to these posts always changes depending upon what I've
most recently experienced. For instance on a recent visit to this
area, David Finckel was telling me about Karen Yap's school in
Singapore where she did amazing things with extremely young
cellists. I had many questions, and since the school operates via
snail mail it could take a while to get my answers which I will
definitely post.
Naturally my own kids come into play here,
and they are SO different in temperament, approach to the cello,
natural ability, dedication, placement in birth order, and what
was/is going on in my life as they are studying.
I resumed
my studies when Stef started hers. We played constantly, I helped
her as my own skills started to re-emerge after laying dormant for a
very long time. Someone was always picking up a cello here. Andrea
started a year behind Stef. By that time already Stef was really
loving cello and making rapid progress, and my own playing had hit a
different level. So the rediscovery phase was over by the time
Andrea came on the scene. I played with her, but not as much as I
intended to because I only had so much time to devote to this, and
my level was closer to Stef's. This is over a period of 5-6 years
now. Stef takes every opportunity to play she can get her hands on.
She plays because she loves it. At one phase things had come so
easily to her, when she found a hard exercise assigned to her that
she had to WORK at, her mood changed. She got passed it, continues
to progress. I think Andrea possesses more natural ability, has a
wonderful ear, but chooses to look like the martyred student. Asking
her to practice is like I asked her to clean a horse barn or
something. And then out of the blue she plays like the devil. She
CHOOSES her times and places, and there ain't nothing I'm going to
do to alter that.
I've always been firm on dedication, but
less firm on how one expresses that dedication. My mom played piano,
my sisters played string instruments, and practice was something
that we were responsible for and if we did poorly, we knew who to
blame. I have seen many parents who never learned to play an
instrument, try to relive this deprivation through pushing their own
children. Since they don't understand the frustration and sometimes
boredom that comes with wanting to PLAY music, but not understanding
the work that goes into LEARNING how to play it. They set practice
times, don't recognize the sheer hatred that starts to develop
towards the innocent little instrument. In my case I had enough
working knowledge of the instrument to quit, and come back in my
30s. If my kids get that much out of it, I'll be satisfied. Not
happy, but satisfied. This is where the stuff gets ingrained in
their brains. The experiences have to be positive, even if there are
fewer of them. We have done silly things like dress up and use
candles a la Liberace to set the tone for some special playing. I
have feigned trouble with a "difficult" passage so Andrea could come
and straighten me out, work out alternate fingerings, find notes and
why mom was having trouble.
The approach you take has to be
specific to each child, and you. Stef has other abilities Andrea
doesn't have. They are both at music camp currently, and that is an
atmosphere where the martyred Andrea goes on vacation and the staff
there manage to get things out of her (like a Mozart piano quartet)
that she would have said is too hard here, but wanted to prove
something when they thought they should replace her in the quartet
due to the difficulty. Same kid in different hands.
I see a
bunch of kids in the youth orchestra, some who started at age 4 in
Suzuki and are no farther ahead than those who started at age 8 or
10 non-Suzuki. I have to question whether it makes sense to do
something with a small child that takes them much longer to learn,
than an older child who is capable of doing the same thing with less
effort, in less time. If it's fun for the child, go for it. If it's
torture, you have to recognize it. There are times to push, times to
back off, and I'd rather back off and have my child play less
frequently than push daily and see her quit.
There's a mom I
know who does not play, and pushed every one of her kids into string
instruments at age 3 and 4. Each one of them, in turn, quit as soon
as they entered college and left the home. I suspect as they get
older they will return to it, and she's given them that gift. You
just never know what's going to happen.
I didn't mean to make
this such a disjointed post. It is quite clear in my brain, but
coming out the fingers it gets jumbled. Sometimes listening to
music, lying on the floor at night, all the lights out,, and talking
about what we hear can be just as critical to their love of cello as
sitting at it, trying to play. I think they develop a stronger sense
of WHY they want to play.
Incidentally, if it weren't for a
handful of incredible mentors on this board -- some here rarely
anymore -- none of the Gunst girls would be where we are today. With
sincerity and many hugs to those who helped us, a very teary-eyed
thank you. Ellen
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cellogram
Registered User
Posts: 4
(6/25/01 1:44:48 pm)
Reply
|
Re: Your results
may vary... the 5 year old kid
It is nice to read so many different approaches to learning. I
honestly think most parents think they are doing their child a favor
when they do not look at the whole picture of practicing whether it
be an instrument or their homework. There are two parts to young
children learning 1. There is better tone production in that child
has they get older. This is based on students I have had from 5 to 8
and 9 . I see it. They are your basic average player. The second
part is they just plain enjoy it and as a friend or family member
you can just have some good , clean wholesome enjoyment together!Of
course older students can grasp more . I started my third and fourth
graders this school year on violins as part of their curriculum.
They were moving right along. but the tone production on some of my
younger students who have been playing awhile is much richer. It is
the teacher's job and responsibility to work with each child exactly
where they are at. Otherwise frustrations happen. I did have a
little 5 year old girl start to move up with her violin playing
after awhile. I would stop by her school. When the weather changed
and the kids would be outside playing, guess who shows up by violin
teacher!!yukD!! I would put my hand on her shoulder and say. We will
go thru our three songs 2 times each and you will be back outside in
just a few minutes. We did, she didn;t race she played and I sent
her out fifteen minutes, I would get together with her two times a
week like that.For two months before our recital. The week before
our recital she fell out of a tree and broke her arm. Her mom said
that when she realized she could not play in the re cital she cried
for almost an hour She was in all sorts of other recitals at the
time for dance. but the one that bothered her the most was the
violin recital. I had thought this kid was not thaat crazy aboutthe
violin but did enjoy it. I guess I figured wrong. But I learned
along time go what the Bible teaches that is to treat others how you
would like to be treated. I would rather play outside too if I was a
widdle kid on a nice day. But having some compassion about the
situation helps. I don;t have it all down by any means, but the more
I teach and take into account that these kids have had an equally
long and tiring day like myself, that treating them kindly will gain
many rewards for them !! Love ya all
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