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zambocello
Registered User
Posts: 643
(6/30/01 12:40:17 am)
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Bach 6th Suite
(a rhetorical/trolling question)
No one in there right mind would go on stage to play one of the
first 5 suites without an a string. Why do we play 6th without an e
string!?
Has anyone heard or played the version in G, down a
5th?
Speaking of 5-string cellos, my teach, Laszlo Varga,
plays the Beethoven Violin Concerto on his 5-stringer here in LA
with the Topanga Symphony on July 8.
Edited by: zambocello
at: 6/30/01 12:41:13 am
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DoDahlberg
Moderator
Posts: 102
(6/30/01 5:42:30 am)
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Re: Bach 6th
Suite (a rhetorical/trolling question)
My friend (and daughter's cello teacher), Maxine Neuman, had a
cello made to accommodate the 5th string specifically for this
Suite. It's a slightly small cello, her tall 12 year old son uses it
without the 5th string. Other than performing the 6th Suite she used
the cello to teach her college students the 6th Suite as written.
Dorie |
drcello
Registered User
Posts: 454
(6/30/01 7:20:07 am)
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Why don't we all
use 5 stringers all the time?
Why don't we give up our 4 stringers and all move to 5 stringers.
All but the highest notes could then be easily played by anyone who
had mastered fourth position. Seems like a great idea to me!
Marshall C. St. John
drcello@vei.net
Wayside Presbyterian Church
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drcello
Registered User
Posts: 455
(6/30/01 7:21:40 am)
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5 stringers in
pro orchestras
A related question. Suppose someone in the CSO or other top notch
orchestra decided to use a 5 string cello all the time. Would it be
allowed? Would he be drummed out of the corp? If so, why?
Marshall C. St. John
drcello@vei.net
Wayside Presbyterian Church
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zambocello
Registered User
Posts: 646
(6/30/01 12:22:12 pm)
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Re: 5 stringers
in pro orchestras
One problem is that because of the length/mass of the e string it
doesn't blend well on 5-stringers -- it has a tendency to whine.
If I had the money to play with, I would get a 7/8 size
cello and set it up with 5 strings for the 6th Suite, Arpeggione,
and other such oddities.
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Corrina
Connor
Moderator
Posts: 715
(7/2/01 8:29:42 pm)
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Re: 5 stringers
in pro orchestras
imagine the big tune in the 4th mvt. of Prokofiev#5! You could play
it in fifth position!
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G
M Stucka
Registered
User
Posts: 613
(7/2/01 10:18:01
pm)
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Re: 5 stringers
in pro orchestras
Yes, but alas, NO SLIDES!!!! (sigh)
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Victor
Sazer
Registered
User
Posts: 93
(7/2/01 11:01:19
pm)
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G major
version
Yes a G major version of the 6th suite was prepared by James
Nicholas. His edition includes scholarly thoughts about about
performance practices.
For further info email:
nicholas02@snet.net
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Corrina
Connor
Moderator
Posts: 716
(7/3/01 8:08:05 pm)
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True- the 3rd
finger technique won't work!
You can play that tune entirely with your third finger, and the one
in the 3rd(?) mvt too......
slidemistress-in-training
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Christopher
Chan
Registered
User
Posts: 136
(7/5/01 11:33:33
am)
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Re: Bach 6th
Suite (a rhetorical/trolling question)
We play the 6th suite without a 5th string b/c we don't even play
the instrument that it was written for. If you're concerned about
playing it with a 5th string you shouldn't even play it on the
cello. Adding another string would be the wrong way to go. You'd
have to resurrect the viola pomposa, which happens to not be played
like a cello, but played on the arm.
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zambocello
Registered User
Posts: 657
(7/6/01 1:50:25 am)
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It's all
speculation, but I disagree about the viola pomposa
There's practically no evidence what instrument Bach had in mind
for the 6th Suite. The sources only describe to what pitches the 5
strings should be tuned.
There were, of course, a great many
off-shoot and hybrid instruments, including 5-string cellos. Even
the articles in Groves Dictionary ("Violoncello" and "Viola
Pomposa") conflict when it comes to those instruments and Bach's
usage/invention.
I know the viola pomposa existed but it's
hard to imagine what it would have sounded like. To beplayed on the
arm the box would have been too small for the cello's pitches, and
the strings would have to be quite thick and/or flabby. The Groves
article suggests it would have been tuned an octave higher than the
cello.
An interesting observation about the 6th Suite is that
it is written in all the sources in bass clef and C clefs, as are
other pieces for "leg" instruments. If it was for an "arm"
instrument, it would more typically have been in treble clef - an
octave - down and C clefs. Plus, it was included with the cello
pieces, without describing a different instrument for its
application. That's why I think it is firstly appropriate as a
(5-string, piccolo, leg) cello piece.
I say firstly
appropriate rather than more appropriate because, as with a lot of
Bach's music, it could work on just about any instrument, including
a 4-string cello. I'm interested in studying the G major edition
(down a fifth) or making my own similar arrangement, because I
suspect the compromises involved in transposing and rewriting the
passages that go too low are fewer and less severe than the
compromises associated with playing without a top string.
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mcello
Registered User
Posts: 105
(7/7/01 8:51:08 am)
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Research
paper
I actually did a term paper about this work and using a 5 string
cello last fall. From what I understand I think if one were to opt
using a five string cello for everything, one would lose the
senority of the C string as one would have to use a smaller cello
for the e string not to break. I don't think that would meet the
demands we usually have for playing other works. Though, I agree
with others that think this particular work would do better with
adding an e string to a smaller cello. I personally would like to
learn this suite in this manner.
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DWThomas
Registered User
Posts: 376
(7/13/01 8:53:21 pm)
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Late addendum on
5-stringers ...
I was just now going thru some back issues of digests from the
harpsichord list and found the following quote, excerpted from a
discussion on continuo playing and
instrumentation:
--------------------------------------------------
"The
cello (violon'cello; shrunk violone, again pointing the the real
ancestry of the violone as a bass violin) was not invented until the
mid seventeenth cent., and then it was larger than our modern
counterpart.
Almost all 17th.c. cellos have been cut down,
getting new ribs in the process.
"Very many of the early
cellos, and by all means not just the German peasant ones, were five
stringers with a high e string. Bach's 6th suite is specifically for
this tuning. I just finished restoring a large and not cut-down
Turin five string.
"Because of the cumbersome size, a small
cello became popular in the first half of the 18th c., and these are
usually called 7/8th cellos today, but they are full sized real
celli. They have their counterpart in the division viol as opposed
to the bass viol. Lully's Basse is a bass violin, a BIG cello
probably tuned d, A, E, HH. At least that is what the real experts
think at the present. It works,
too."
--------------------------------------------------
The
writer was William Jurgenson, an ex-patriate from Michigan who is a
luthier in Germany, building and restoring harpsichords and basses
(well, they're both wood and use strings!)
I am in no
position to assess the reliability of his statement, but he does
seem quite knowledgeable and has done restorations for major
museums.
Dave
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