| Author |
Comment |
ashley
Registered User
Posts: 15
(7/12/01 2:20:12 am)
Reply
|
4-oct
arps
Hi everyone,
I've got a bit of a strange question: What do you
all think about practicing four-octave arpeggios? I practice them -
and my teacher encourages it - but she said once that she studied
with someone who thought they were useless... or not worth the time
at least. What do you all think? For some reason I started thinking
about them... I think it can be very helpful to practice them. Ever
since I started practicing them I've felt more comfortable in the
higher positions.
What do you all think???
|
drcello
Registered User
Posts: 480
(7/12/01 2:43:02 am)
Reply
| Edit
|
I think you are
right.
Most beginning cellists find it difficult to think of the higher
positions as being easy as the lower positions. 4 oct arps, or
anything that makes us familiar with the entire fingerboard is very
good.
Marshall C. St. John
drcello@vei.net
Wayside Presbyterian Church
|
David
Sanders 
Registered User
Posts: 628
(7/12/01 7:49:03 am)
Reply
|
Re: 4-oct
arps
When I studied with Frank Miller, he insisted on 4-octave
arpeggios, but only for the keys that started on the C string.
He had me practice them fast, separate bows (as well as the
usual ways), which was very helpful for coordination.
|
Stefan79
Registered User
Posts: 313
(7/12/01 5:04:20 pm)
Reply
|
Re: 4-oct
arps
I play them in 4 octaves. I don't see why that would be
useless...?
I studied with a teacher that said that it would be
useless to play minor scales...he said "you're playing the same
notes in major anyway"...some teachers have strange ideas...
/
Stefan
|
CelloBass
Registered User
Posts: 15
(7/12/01 7:37:52 pm)
Reply
|
Re: 4-oct
arps
Stefan,
sometimes things get funny when musicians try to be
logical! ;-) When your teacher mentions this again, you could
suggest to play in the future only one chromatic scale from C to
c'''. Reason: All major and minor scales are automatically included!
Yes, arpeggios as well, they are hidden, a bit, but the notes are
there!
Regards, Horst
|
dennisw
Registered User
Posts: 213
(7/12/01 10:48:42 pm)
Reply
|
Re: 4-oct
arps
4-octave arpgeggios?? Absolutely. 4-octave scales??? No (with the
possible exception of C,Db,&D major and minor).
|
ashley
Registered User
Posts: 16
(7/13/01 8:48:02 pm)
Reply
|
hmm, a few more
questions...
Thanks for your responses everyone. I have a few more questions now
though.
To
David Sanders,
Why not practice the arpeggios that start on the
G-string too? The more, the merrier. Actually, I
find those easier than the C-string keys because the intervals are
smaller the higher the arpeggio is...
To dennisw,
What?!
No four-octave SCALES??? I practice all scales four octaves all the
time! You've shattered my entire world!! Why
wouldn't you suggest four-octave scales?
|
dennisw
Registered User
Posts: 215
(7/13/01 10:38:14 pm)
Reply
|
Re: hmm, a few
more questions...
Once you get past the 2nd octave on the A-string the sound of the
instrument begins to get squeeky. The higher you go, the squeekier
it gets. Most of the solo literature is written below this level
with the exception for special effects, which are almost (note:
almost) never scalar. The really strong solo register is between the
1st & 2nd octaves. You'll note that the bulk of writing is in
this register.
Another point is the intervals are very small
and the orientation of the left hand is difficult to keep
perpendicular to the fingerboard, the higher you go. I really don't
see much of an argument for thumb position much past the 2nd octave
on any string.
You can learn the intervals for special
effects by practicing 4-octave arpeggios. A quick-search through my
personal database yields the cadenza to the Boccherini concerto in
Bb (mvt #3). Then there are a variety of harmonics in Popper etudes
& short pieces. There is a 4-octave e-minor scale in the Elgar
concerto (mvt #1). There are "false" harmonics in the Saint-Saens
concerto in a minor.
So, after all is said and done, I
consider playing 4-octave scales to be pretty much a waste of time.
The few times you have to actually pay attention to scalar passages
way up there, I figure I can learn it when I need it. Arpeggios are
another story.
I also like the posting that mentioned
playing the arpeggios *fast* all the way up & down w/detache'
bowing. Good idea.
|
RobertPlaysCello
Registered User
Posts: 6
(7/17/01 3:44:24 pm)
Reply
|
difference
between an arpeggio and a scale?
Hey, I'm new to the instrument. Could someone please explain the
difference between an arpeggio and a scale? I thought they were the
same...
-rl
|
zambocello
Registered User
Posts: 668
(7/17/01 4:11:00 pm)
Reply
|
Re: 4-oct
arps
I did 4-octave scales and arpeggios, using the Klengel book as a
source. Like David S, I only did 4 octaves starting on the C string;
from the G string I did 3 octaves. (Who wants rosin on their finger
tips coming back down the cello?) I think high scales and arpeggios
are valuable exercises. To control tone and intonation throughout
the instrument's range is essential and, although the 4th octave is
not used that much in "real life," when it is used it is often at a
critical moment that can make or break the audience's impression of
the piece and the performance.
I think practicing with varied
bowings and rhythms is essential. To always practice basic exercises
in the same manner is nothing more than learning another "piece"
which won't provide the intended general benefit to our techinique.
|
Paul
Tseng ICS Staff 
Administrator
Posts: 1433
(7/17/01 4:26:51 pm)
Reply
 |
you're kidding,
right?
Quote:
Once you get past the 2nd octave on the A-string the sound of the
instrument begins to get squeeky. The higher you go, the squeekier
it gets. Most of the solo literature is written below this level
with the exception for special effects, which are almost (note:
almost) never scalar. The really strong solo register is between
the 1st & 2nd octaves. You'll note that the bulk of writing is
in this register.
Quote:
I consider playing 4-octave scales to be pretty much a waste of
time. The few times you have to actually pay attention to scalar
passages way up there, I figure I can learn it when I need it
Dennisw, surely you
jest!
I would like to suggest that in many cases, the sound
getting squeaky is not to be blamed the loveliest of all stringed
instruments (the cello).
When you say "most of the solo
literature" you may be right to some degree, but what do you do when
you play Prokofiev op. 125? The very last measures are up there in
the stratosphere. What about Elfentanz? I sure would hate for those
notes to be played without having practiced in that register
adequately prior to working on those pieces.
I'm
going to break with the herd here and suggest practicing 5 octave
scales!
We shouldn't limit our playing to what is
conventional. Cello technique and repertroire would never have
evolved if the person who perfected thumb position took such an
attitude.
Many of the works written for Rostropovich may not
have come into exisitence if Slava simply stayed with what was
convenient and conventional. Rather, he didn't let technical
convention limit the imagination of the music. He let the technique
rise to the occasion even if it meant creating "new"
technique.
Let's all be "Forward looking", shall we?
Paul Tseng
My Website
Free Cello
Music!
|
MaryK
Registered
User
Posts: 662
(7/17/01 5:20:15
pm)
Reply
|
Re: difference
between an arpeggio and a scale?
Scale = do re mi fa sol la ti do
Arpeggio = playing the
notes of a chord in rapid succession; in connection w/scale studies,
would be do (tonic), mi (3d), sol (5th), do (tonic, an octave above
the original do).
|
dennisw
Registered User
Posts: 216
(7/17/01 5:25:44 pm)
Reply
|
Re: you're
kidding, right?
No, I don't jest.
The cello gets squeeky past the 2nd
octave on each string. It's not my opinion, that is a fact. I have
NEVER heard a cellist play up near the end of the fingerboard and
sound anything BUT squeeky. If it was a great sounding register for
the cello, lots of music would be written for it.
Boccherini
was one of the more adventerous cellists of his day. He attempted to
fully exploit the instrument's sound for his own benefit as a
performing musician. It seems that he, Duport, Haydn (Kraft) all
seemed to stay within the tessitura of the instrument. The
occasional forays above are more for special effect (cadenza),
harmonics (squeeky), than for substance.
I'm glad you
mentioned Elfentanz. If you note the high passages (squeeky as all
get-out) it's easiest to play them (and written so) keeping the
thumb on high A while you stretch to get the rest. Lots of Popper
etudes can be fingered this way as well. I guess he called it "Dance
of the Elves" because of its squeeky sound.
So much for talk
about the cello's registration, how about 4-octave scales that cover
the high registers??
We play scales to set our left hand,
secure intonation, and to improve coordination with the bow. It has
been mentioned that playing 4-octave scales that start on the
c-string means up to F#. I would say playing 4-octave scales up to D
or maybe Eb would be useful to the cellist. I'm willing to agree to
disagree with that small a difference in opinion. But above that??
5-octave scales?? No way. All that noodling around up there isn't
going to achieve what we play scales for.
Trying to play in
thumb position past that is ludicrous and for the number of times
you play in this register, I still think it is a waste of time and
effort that is better spent elsewhere. Like with 4-octave
arpeggios.
One more thing... Playing up that high, I would
argue is also bad for the back (unless you have long arms).
Especially if you do it a lot. The stretch is very
un-natural.
|
Paul
Tseng ICS Staff
Administrator
Posts: 1434
(7/17/01 6:05:10 pm)
Reply
|
Re: you're
kidding, right?
I would have to agree with you on all this if I experienced the
discomfort you mentioned. I don't however have any physical
discomfort playing way up on the cello. In fact, I find it much more
comfortable than 1st position which is the most awkward of all
positions.
I don't think that it's a waste of time and I
wouldn't avoid the challenge of improving my sound up there. The
term Squeaking is very subjective here.
When I think squeak,
I hear some very unpleasant and annoying sounds. Prokofiev's op. 125
is way up there in the closing measures and I have heard plenty of
people squeaking up there (including myself when I fist started
learning it). But it's not the nature of the instrument. If there is
any squeaking (by my definition) it's the player's fault or lack of
ability to make it sound clean.
It is truly a challenge. We
do have to choose our battles, so I can respect it if you feel your
time is limited and therefore don't have the time to attack this
technical challenge I can fully understand (being a musician with
very limited time, myself). There's so much music that I want to
play that requires me to play in those upper registers that I feel
it's worthwhile for me to get as good as I can up there. So for me,
it's a worthwhile challenge to overcome.
Paul Tseng
My Website
Free Cello
Music!
|
Stefan79
Registered User
Posts: 316
(7/17/01 6:29:16 pm)
Reply
|
Re: you're
kidding, right?
I think that Paul has a point...
Paul, first thing in
the morning, I'm going to start the day with a 5 octave D major
scale... I'm working
with one scale per day now, today was Db major, after I have gotten
all the way up to B major, I'm going to work my way down again, in
minor...
/
Stefan
|
Tracie
Price 
Registered User
Posts: 562
(7/17/01 7:01:52 pm)
Reply
|
Re: you're
kidding, right?
I know many people who don't really believe in 4-octave scales,
actually. Perhaps 4-octave scales for those that start on the C
string, but not for others. 5-octaves sounds really painful to
me!
I'm not planning on playing Elfentanz anytime soon
though. Or ever, actually. I don't get into playing high and fast
just for the sake of playing high and fast.
|
dennisw
Registered User
Posts: 217
(7/17/01 7:16:27 pm)
Reply
|
Re: you're
kidding, right?
I don't think you have caught my drift, Paul.
It isn't time
limits that should be cause for concern. Anything worth doing is
worth spending the time doing. I'm saying it isn't worth spending
time doing it because it isn't useful time spent
(IMO).
Another point is this: I have seen plenty of 20th
century music written with all sorts of techniques employed to get
some kind of a sound out of the cello. 99.9% of the time, they
aren't worth practicing and neither composer nor audience would know
the difference if you did or didn't.
The cello is squeekier
the higher you go. The sound gets dramatically thinner. It isn't a
matter of judging "bad sound" vs. "good sound" it's simply a
characteristic of the instrument. If you don't want to apply the
term "squeeky" to Elfentanz, then don't. Maybe you could call it
"Elf-like". I'm quite certain, however, that what you hear when you
listen to J. Starker play the piece is what I hear when I listen to
the same recording. Be that as it may, it is nevertheless true that
that register is not a strong one for the cello. The cello is really
an analog to the tenor. Don't push a 1st tenor past his tessitura if
you want to hear his best voice. You could ask him to sing falsetto,
however, which is used in comic-opera. Pieces like Elfentanz are the
cello's equivalent of falsetto.
But, hey, if you want to play
5-octave scales, knock yourself out.....
|
 Steve
Drake
Registered
User
Posts: 390
(7/17/01 11:04:00
pm)
Reply
Community Supporter
|
Hmmm...
backatcha
Sorry, Dennisw, but you're a victim of a bad cello, or bad
technique, or bad ears. Good cellos do NOT get "squeaky" above the
2nd octave on whatever string. Bad cellists can make good cellos
squeak, in whatever octave, and even good cellists can ocassionally
squeak on bad instruments, but your generalization is totally wrong.
Squeaks are generally a result of bad bow technique. The
usual inclination is to play closer to the bridge the higher you get
on the string, but sometimes this doesn't work, and you need to back
off a bit to get a full tone.
Perhaps you are percieving
high pitched sounds as squeaks - this might be a symptom of a
hearing disorder, or some hearing loss.
Perhaps you need to
just practice 4 or 5 octave arps, and get it right this time. It can
be done. Learn how to do it without squeaking, like the pros, and
then make sweeping generalizations.
Basic technique for an
amateur cellist doesn't really need to include the higher octaves.
Perhaps this is what you are refering to? For a professional cellist
who sometimes gets called on to play in the higher ranges, you can't
ignore the challenges of playing a full bodied, non-squeaky tone in
whatever octave is called upon.
My MP3's
My Cello
Homepage |
dennisw
Registered User
Posts: 219
(7/17/01 11:41:17 pm)
Reply
|
Re: Hmmm...
backatcha
Sorry Steve, you're the one who is wrong.
I've already
explained the word "squeeky" in other postings. I think you should
read them first before responding further.
I'll bet my next
paycheck you sound just as "squeeky" as the others I've heard when
you play in that register.
|
Paul
Tseng ICS Staff
Administrator
Posts: 1435
(7/18/01 1:07:16 am)
Reply
|
Re: you're
kidding, right?
Bottom line for me:
I dont' consider 4 or 5 octave scales a
waste of time.
Clearly, we haven't convinced eachother, but
that was probably not our intention anyway.
Have fun with 3 octave scales!
Paul Tseng
My Website
Free Cello
Music!
|
Steve
Drake
Registered
User
Posts: 391
(7/18/01 10:29:41
am)
Reply
Community Supporter
|
Re: Hmmm...
backatcha
I think it's a semantic problem. You define squeaky differently
than most people. That's ok, english is a malleable language.
By your definition of squeaky, you owe me your next
paycheck. email me for my mailing address! 
My MP3's
My Cello
Homepage |
Internet Cello
Society Forums
Email
This To a Friend
Topic Commands (Moderator
only)