| Author |
Subject |
drcello
Registered User
(4/8/01 5:48:16 am)
Reply | Edit |
principal's volume vs section volume
Should the principal cellist's
volume be greater that the other cellists' volume, or should the
entire section play at about the same volume and sound like one big
cello? I sit about 3 stands back from our principal, and can often
hear him clearly.
drcello
Marshall C. St. John
drcello@vei.net
Cello Heaven
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lblake
Registered
User
(4/8/01 2:48:03 pm)
Reply |
Re:
principal's volume vs section volume
I've been wondering how the pros do
it, anyway... principal or not. How loud are your cellos? My teacher
is associate principal - so I know sometimes he plays principal...
and he always seems to be looking for more volume on his cello. In
fact, we recently traded strings. (My very loud Belcanto Golds for
his Pirastro Permanent Soloists.)
I wonder if the whole
section makes a point of being loud, or if just the front players
do, or what? (hmmm... I suppose I could have asked, but... I guess I
just want more opinions.  )
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Sasha
A M
Registered
User
(4/8/01 2:57:43 pm)
Reply |
not
louder than principal!
hello!
i think the section at
its best sounds like one big cello. that means you also have to
discuss amount of vibrato and follow the principals bowing: where
and how much, how fast, how lightly...
it is very disturbing
to hear a "solo cello performance" from the last seat, as was case
in the conservatory opera a year ago - a 2nd year student wanted to
be principal cello, and she didnt know that if there is a diploma
student playing, he or she will always be the principal. so she
tried to convince us from the last seat... it was a
nightmare.
but i believe for the listener it would be as
disturbing to hear most of the section volume to come from the
principal. i would suggest, that others try to match the principals
volume as well as possible, but be careful not to go over
it.
sasha
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David
Sanders 
Registered User
(4/8/01 4:43:55 pm)
Reply |
Re:
principal's volume vs section volume
>How loud are your cellos?
I don't think it's the instrument as much as the player.
Different players get different quality and quanity of sound out of
the same instrument.
It certainly isn't a good idea for
anyone, including the principal, to stick out. But then, when you're
sitting in the back, or just about anywhere behind the first stand,
it's difficult or even impossible to hear the principal. I think
what we try to do in the CSO is just play the dynamics that are
written, soft when it's soft and loud when it's loud, and if the
balance or blend isn't good, leave it up to the conductor (or
occassionaly the principal) to make changes.
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Steve
Drake
Registered
User
(4/8/01 4:51:44 pm)
Reply |
Re:
principal's volume vs section volume
As someone who does both section and
principal duty, I think everyone should play the same dynamics. The
cello section should strive to be one big cello. When playing loud,
certain instruments and playing techniques can make certain players
louder than others, but when playing the softer dynamics it's
fabulous if everyone can really play the same volumes. I have a
tendency to play too loud, but fortunately I have great stand
partners who aren't afraid to point out dynamics to me if I'm
ignoring them.
My MP3's
My Cello
Homepage
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lblake
Registered
User
(4/8/01 9:48:20 pm)
Reply |
Re:
principal's volume vs section volume
Thanks for the answer, David... I
didn't really think anyone in a section would want to stick out, so
that was about what I expected. (and, by the way, I don't think my
teacher would be trying to stick out, either. But, I think his cello
isn't especially loud, either.) I know some people play more
aggressively than others (and my teacher, in my opinion, isn't one
of those especially 'loud' players, either), but at the same time, I
still maintain that some cellos are louder than others, regardless
of who is playing.
So, part II of my question: Do
professionals tend to use louder cellos, in general? Or is that
really not much of a consideration when they choose an
instrument?
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David
Sanders
Registered User
(4/9/01 1:27:06 am)
Reply |
Re:
principal's volume vs section volume
I think when trying an instrument
most of us would want to find a powerful instrument that carries
well in a hall. And you're right, some cellos are louder than
others. But in general, even if one player is playing a "softer"
instrument, and another player a "louder" one, I would think there
wouldn't be a big difference in the amount of sound that would be
coming out in a loud passage.
Often instruments that sound very
loud under the ear don't project as well as others with a more
focused sound.
To answer part II of your question, I don't
think that professionals necessarily use louder cellos. I think
they've probably learned how to play louder on any cello.
(I also
like to say that it's not a matter of volume, it's a matter of
attitude.)
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cellochris99
Registered User
(4/9/01 3:40:31 am)
Reply |
sound
Sometimes I think that there's way
too much emphasis on the gear someone is using, when, if it came
down to it, a GOOD player can get a "their" same full sound out of
just about any instrument you handed them.
When I experiment
with strings and instruments, I always seem to be able to get the
same general sound that I want in spite of the equipment, as long as
it's decent equipment to start with, of course. You could even get a
full, or even "loud" sound out of a well set up plywood instrument,
if you're willing to put some sweat into it!
One of the
things that I see ocassionally that really saddens me, are cellists
that, while usually young or novice, have the misconception that
somehow the MAIN problem with their playing is that they have an
"inferior" instrument, therefore they "cannot", or "will not"
advance because they, or their parents weren't willing or able to
splurge for a "real" cello, and therefore they just lose interest
and give up.
I knew a young woman who began cello in
childhood through high school but gave up on it altogether because
the other cello students were playing on $$$ cellos, and she could
not aquire one of that quality and got an inferiority complex and
quit. I played her "crappy" cello and it sounded and played just
fine, even had plenty of growing room for her level of ability at
the time, including the other cellists I might add.
Chris
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Sasha
A M
Registered
User
(4/16/01 11:40:18 am)
Reply |
playing
with a bad cello
well...
i think everyone
should have the possibility to practice with a fine instruments for
some months. if one has to play a not-so-good instrument, he/she
cannot possibly know how to get those wonderful sounds that other
cellists do - because they are so difficult to produce. and a "bad
cello" should also be properly set-up, otherwise there is no use to
study on it. i had a very bad instrument for many years and first,
the strings were too high so that the playing was really "tough",
and i never understood how people can play thumb positions - i had
to stop after a minute or so thumb position, to keep my fingers from
bleeding... also my teacher was so stupid he never tried my
instrument. the next teacher set up the cello so it was playable,
but anyway the sound was not good.
now i have a very good
instrument, french fischesser, about 100 years of age, and i have
made repairs on it, the fingerboard, bridge, tailpiece all very well
set up. i must say that playing a fine instrument makes you want to
make right for the potential. it makes your intonation better, it
makes you want to shade the playing with different colours
etc...
sometimes an instrument makes a big difference. too
bad all of us cannot have best possible
instruments.
sasha
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cellochris99
Registered User
(4/17/01 5:53:32 am)
Reply |
quality
for everyone!
I'm just rambling ignorantly here
but, I agree that all of us serious cellists should be able to get a
hold of a fine instrument, ...but in my opinion why should we have
to give it back!?
If I
had my way, instruments on par with Strads, Amatis, Montags, etc.
would be MORE accessible to a much broader scope of equally
deserving, but less resourceful musicians. Seems fair to me. I don't
think any musician should have to be stuck with a settle-for-less
instrument. If instrument makers would raise the standard, the cost
should accommodate! Just venting
a little.
Chris
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cyn38
Registered
User
(4/17/01 3:31:52 pm)
Reply |
Re:
principal's volume vs section volume
Chris,
We have a guy in our
symphony cello section who still uses his original student cello and
gets great sound! I think he's had plenty of opportunity to upgrade,
but is quite content with it.
For what it's worth
-cyn
cynsymphony@aol.com
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Arno
Merkle
Registered
User
(4/18/01 4:23:20 pm)
Reply |
my
experience
As principal, I have experienced the
following:
In loud sections, I feel like I'm playing louder
than my section (on average). The opposite is true for quiet
passages - I tend to play under my section. Most likely this is due
to ignorance of dynamics by some players, but it's mostly a
sensitivity thing. I can hear the rest of my section because they're
all sitting behind me. The last chair can't hear as well in the
quiet sections, and thus plays louder.
Not quite sure what
conclusions to draw, but it is interesting nonetheless.
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Lucy
Clifford
Registered User
(4/19/01 2:33:19 am)
Reply |
volume
I had less-than-ideal cello for my
first three years of college, and because that was when I first
started playing in a full-sized orchestra (around 88 players) I
realised that I couldn't produce a satisfactory sound, and I
certainly couldn't hear myself. There was too much buzz and fur
around my sound. I digress.......
I think that it is more
'the attitude' than the volume. Hopefully the principle of the
orchestral player, principal or section, is to produce the *best*
sound possible, whatever the dynamic, so that the quality is never
compromised by ppppp, or fffff. This, more than volume, is what
makes a section sound good. It took me a while to learn this, and
put the theory into practice, because if on player decides to let up
a bit, and have a snooze on the quiet bits, it really affects the
overall sound, even an 'insignificant' person at the back. Sadly, in
an orchestral situation we are none of us insignificant, or else we
wouldn't be playing. This is especially true of the cello section,
because, hopefully, the maestro will have adjusted the number
playing for the requirements of the piece.
So, if there is a
section of 14 players, everybody is just as important as in a
section of 6 players.
Once more I digress.
Bye!
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msj
Registered User
(4/19/01 2:37:30 am)
Reply |
principal's volume ...
What Arno said about soft passages
is usually my experience - the section plays louder than the first
stand. However, yesterday in a rehearsal of Mahler 5th Symphony, 2nd
mvt m. 192 - 209 marked - the place with the written out portamentos
in the cello "soli," I could have sworn that the people behind me
were NOT EVEN PLAYING! It sounded like a 1st stand solo - not a very
nice feeling when you have to play sul tasto, pp and in a very wolfy
register on tungsten strings that don't like to be played softly! I
came so close to turning around in the middle of rehearsal and
saying, "Please play." It's such a balancing act of keeping your
section happy and trying to fix things with so many egos involved.
Especially in a school environment - if they don't like or respect
you, forget about making music.
Matt
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Arno
Merkle
Registered
User
(4/19/01 11:01:46 am)
Reply |
principal's volume
Matt-
that's funny. I've had
that same experience with the Mahler in the same spot! I guess the
explanation for that is that it's a very exposed part, and the
section realizes the reliability of the first stand. Still, that's
not a reason to stop playing!
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