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Internet Cello Society Forums > Cellists by Night (Semi-Pro or Amateur) > Scary tenor key/positions
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claud19 Registered User (4/12/01 1:04:32 pm) Reply	Scary tenor key/positions Hi everyone. I've been a "lurker" for a while, but haven't really posted before. I've gotten so many great tips, ideas, encouragement from all of you--thank you!! I'm 33, have been playing with a wonderful teacher for 2 years, 2 months (I brought a bottle of wine to my 2-year anniversary lesson and we sipped while we played--so civilized!). I've played other instruments since I was 8 or 9, including piano, so I've had it pretty easy reading music, rhythms, intonation (being aware of it, at least), etc. HOWEVER...I have a zillion cello problems, not the least of which is reading the @#$##$% tenor clef. I've been so comfortable with the treble and bass clefs for so long, that being faced with a new one is truly humbling. Now I know what it feels like to not be able to read music. My little trick has been to think treble clef, and then lower it a line or space. So, I see what looks like a treble E, I convert it to tenor D. I don't know if this is "legal" but it seems to work pretty well for me. I'm slowly learning. MY QUESTION IS:::Is this a crutch? Should I still have to do that little translation in my head? If I look at bass clef D, my hand immediately knows to go there, no intervening thoughts of "That's a D, put my hand here." Same with treble (although a bit slower). But in tenor, I feel like I do when I'm speaking French. Should I be worried about the necessity of this translation?? SIDE QUESTION: When I'm playing in positions other than 1st, should I ALWAYS be exactly aware of the official position I'm playing in? Sometimes if I'm in 3rd, say, and I move a note or two up or down, I worry that if someone asked me, I couldn't tell them if I was still in 3rd or had moved to 4th. Help! I haven't asked my teacher, only because I'm afraid she doesn't remember what it's like to be a rank beginner like myself. I thought the input of the crowd might be more helpful. THanks!
ruthann Registered User (4/12/01 2:50:49 pm) Reply	Re: Scary tenor key/positions Opinions differ, of course. I don't think it matters if you know what position you are in, as long as you do know what notes are available to you in that position. And that knowledge takes time and practice. As for reading tenor, I used the fifth up from bass clef technique, otherwise known as pretend you are playing one string over when I was learning tenor. Whatever works is ok. cello_suttonr@hotmail.com
yesipractice Registered User (4/12/01 4:39:42 pm) Reply	new clef! My first reaction to the new clef was..."you can't do this to me. I can't possibly learn a new clef or new form of musical notation. I didn't sign up for this". I really worried. That was several months ago, since I'm rather new at the cello (just a little over a year). My background in music is substantial, but piano never had a tenor clef! I'm transposing up a 5th to accomplish the task and it's not fun. I'd rather be looking at the treble clef and counting all of the little lines. Oh well, I'm sure this is just one little challenge that I'll overcome and I'm also certain that there will be many more. What's next? Edited by: yesipractice at: 4/12/01 4:39:42 pm
Beaker1 Registered User (4/12/01 8:00:06 pm) Reply	tenor clef trick When I was taught tenor clef I was told to think of it as bass clef just one string to the left since it is a perfect 5th. This made it easier to learn without having to think so much. Before I knew it tenor clef was a comfortable as bass and treble. As for knowing what position you are in, I think it is more important for your hand to know where a note is no matter what finger is trying to hit it.
Andrew Victor Registered User (4/13/01 8:35:21 am) Reply	Puzzled!! Claud, I'm puzzled by your transposition from the treble clef to the tenor. The true treble clef is "a long way" from the tenor note placements. Cello music appears in four (4) clefs: bass, tenor, treble, and a "treble-treble." However, the treble clef (what I call the "treble-treble clef" and which I've also heard called the "Dvorak treble clef" or even the "double-treble clef" is actually written an octave higher than the notes are to be played (my "PrintMusic" software indicates this with a tiny "8" connected to the bottom of the treble clef - and the notes in this clef is read just one whole tone up to play in the tenor clef. So conversely, notes in the tenor clef would be read just one whole tone (a "second") down to play them in this clef. In addition to being characteristic of Dvorak chamber music cello parts, I've also seen this interpretation of the treble clef in some Haydn and Carl Stamitz music. Unfortunately, many cello parts are written with some notes in the "real treble clef" - and these are generally to be played in the thumb positions, rather distant from much of the tenor clef notes, and very distant from the bass clef - essentially viola/(violin) territory - and thank goodness they didn't also give us an alto clef to worry about. Personally, I just think "bass clef - one string to the left" (a major fifth) when I come upon a tenor clef notation in the music, and this takes me as high as the A-string octave "harmonic" written one space above the top space of the tenor clef. Above that, one rarely sees but two notes higher in tenor-clef notation, the B and C (so those are the only two notes I've had to "learn"). Only one more thing, when it comes to transposition of treble clef music to bass clef, this is really easy to do if one is familiar with violin, then it reads just "one string over and one note above the violin notation" - but of course then one is acually playing two octaves below the written treble-clef notes. I have a suspicion that this is the kind of treble clef music you have been playing, (especially drinking wine along with it---just joking!). The good reason for knowing "what position you are in" when above the first position is so that you know what other notes are within reach of your fingers there. But as far as knowing whether you are in 2nd or 3rd, by name, it's not something I think of. This is my perspective from the problems of sight reading where you need to get to the next notes in the music at the right time. I consider the fourth position the best "anchor" (or safe harbor) on the cello because it is the only one I can positively rely on being in, because of the tactile contact with the cello upper bout. With fast hands one can manuever the entire first octave of each string only playing in the 1st and 4th positions - although of course, that is not "good cello playing" it can get you by in some sight-reading situations. Andy
claud19 Registered User (4/13/01 10:03:10 am) Reply	Thanks! Thanks very much for the replies...I had to laugh at the comment from "yesIpractice"..."you can't do this to me. I can't possibly learn a new clef or new form of musical notation. I didn't sign up for this". Those were my EXACT thoughts on that dark day when I learned of the existence of the tenor clef. My second reaction was,"Well, this is probably some arcane thing that my teacher's just showing me as an FYI. I'll just ignore it and it won't come up again." Yeah, well...that approach has been met with severely limited success. Andy, Of course you're "puzzled" by my thinking. I'm often puzzled by it myself. Thanks for your comprehensive reply. Although I must say, at first you scared me even more with the mention of more secret, daunting clefs out there just waiting to beat me down. The treble-treble thing, I mean. You said,"The true treble clef is 'a long way' from the tenor note placements." I guess, from your description, that I really meant I was thinking in that treble-treble clef (although I didn't know I was doing it at the time) and lowering it one line or space, or whole tone. I wasn't paying attention to the octaves, or where the real treble clef notes are--just the flat-out names of them. In fact, I'm extremely foggy on how all the clefs match up to each other, and where they lie on the cello. There is just so much to learn... Thanks for the reassurance about the hand positions too. I just feel like I'm cheating by not being ever-aware of the positions, as if the music police will jump out of the shadows and quiz me at any moment. I guess I just want to do things right from the beginning, and not take any short cuts that will hurt my playing later on.
MaryK Registered User (4/16/01 3:41:12 pm) Reply	Re: Puzzled!! "I'm puzzled by your transposition from the treble clef to the tenor. The true treble clef is "a long way" from the tenor note placements." Yeah, but if all you're needing is to be able to think of the name of the note quickly, the "look at it in treble and go down a note" is pretty slick. (Especially for those of us whose first instrument was notated in treble clef.) I use that and the one-string-to-the-left method. Whatever works, IMO. MaryK
claud19 Registered User (4/17/01 12:09:42 pm) Reply	thanks Thanks Mary...it's always good to hear from someone who shares your outlook. I've been trying the "move over a string" method the past few days, and I find myself reverting to the "down from treble" trick. So, I guess I shouldn't fight it.