tape on the back of the neck

Internet Cello Society Forums > Cellists by Night (Semi-Pro or Amateur) > tape on the back of the neck
	Next Topic >>

Author	Subject
Nico67 Registered User (4/23/01 10:04:11 am) Reply	tape on the back of the neck so I decided that it's time to get serious about my intonation (or better said, lack of it). So far I haven't used any crutches (no tape on the fingerboard or on the back of the neck), but I am willing to consider it if it will help me get better. I am sure my teacher will be against this though. Anyway, I think Dorie said that she used the tape on the back of the neck and other people confirmed this. I tested this method over the weekend and got really confused. I was taught that the thumb is not fixed on a spot when you are in a position (say 1st) but moves around depending which note you are playing. According to my teacher, the thumb should always be in the middle of the fingers which are down on the string (so if you are playing with the 1st finger should be under it, if you are playing with 1 and 2 should be in between and so on). What I actually do, is move the thumb between two positions: under the 1st finger (for 1st and 2nd finger down) or in the middle of the hand (for 3rd and 4th finger down). So where do you put the tape on the back??? If the thumb moves around how does the tape on the back helps you getting back to the position???? I should add that I think my intonation problems are more caused by hand shape than by an incorrect position of the arm on the fingerboard (if that makes any sense at all ...) Confusedly yours Rosario Edited by: Nico67 at: 4/23/01 10:04:11 am
DWThomas Registered User (4/23/01 11:22:29 am) Reply	Re: tape on the back of the neck Yes, but I only use it to keep my head up straight But seriously... My teacher seems to imply that the thumb is always under the 2nd finger, not moving around, except to slide along with the hand on shifts (but still under the 2nd finger). In fact, some of my intonation problems seem to stem from my hand being a bit like a jellyfish, changing shape as I wander between positions or across strings. I've not tried tape. I have tried some exercises where I set my tuner to a troublesome note. (This is an old and pricey job that has a display of three rotating LEDs to show which way you're off the set note -- originally acquired to speed up harpsichord tempering and tuning.) Then I bounce between notes, taking a sideward glance to the LEDs to see how I did. Going from 2nd finger, 1st position to 4th finger, 4th position is a good recent example. (You can also adjust a finger to pitch and hear what that note sounds like on the cello, also sometimes helpful.) I don't really have the right hardware or software setup to do it, but I suspect the idea of playing with MIDI accompaniment, as mentioned a while back, might be useful too. This intonation stuff is definitely a troublesome area. At lessons, my teacher will correct me, or if playing along with me, I immediately hear that I'm off (at least I DO hear the errors of my ways!) But if I'm practicing at home, I fear I could be reinforcing a bad habit here and there. (Years back my old harpsichord teacher made a comment about the old proverb "Practice makes perfect." He said, "No, practice makes permanent!") If I suddenly discover a breakthru method, I'll pass it along. Dave
bridge Registered User (4/23/01 11:50:48 am) Reply	Re: tape on the back of the neck I don't see how tape on the back would help. You could have your thumb in the "right" place and yet have your hand too "small" (i.e. fingers to close together). I used tape (on the front) for about my first six months. Before you know it, you don't need it anymore. One thing I did for intonation was to take a cheap electric keyboard and cheap tape recorder (note: cheap) and record a one-finger-at-a-time C scale up and down several times. Then I'd play along to it over and over and over. Everybody's hands are different. There are "rules of thumb" (no pun intended) about proper placement. I stuck to them religiously at first. It wasn't until I started getting better that I started to tweak things for my particuar anatomy. For instance, I have long fingers and a regular length thumb that is attached rather low on my hand. The result is that if I try to put my thumb dead center on the neck it twists my fingers into unwanted places. I've found that if I place my thumb more towards the A string my fingers "behave" and go where I want them to. Furthermore, my thumb will be more to the left as I play strings that are more to the left. I've found cello to be a great exercise in self observation. My current teacher noticed the thumb thing, but it was a mutual discovery to figure out how to fix it. She related a story about how she had a teacher that demanded she place her hand the way he did. She has a recording of a concert she did from that time and she says that she sounds awful.
JanJan2 Registered User (4/23/01 11:53:59 am) Reply	Re: tape on the back of the neck I too have always been taught the thumb opposes the second finger, creating a letter "C" shape. The really tough nut to crack is learning to RELAX the thumb and not apply direct pressure! That way it can go along for the ride when you shift. Can't say that I've ever heard of or seen anybody tape the neck, and perhaps it's because my mind is elsewhere due to spring fever, but I fail to see what benefit it would provide. Do you have a tuner to use? I think I'd go with a tuner before trying tape. It will reinforce the pitch better than having a visual landmark (at least, I think it would). Just my $0.02. FWIW, last summer I bought a book I saw advertised in Strings. I think it was called Fingerboard Mastery. I looked at it briefly when it first arrived, and then it got lost amid piles of other stuff. I just took it out yesterday (what timing!) to noodle around with it, and I think it will prove to be beneficial for intonation and fingerboard geography. Let me know if you're interested and I'll get you info on it. (If memory serves me correctly, it twasn't cheap.) Janet
Markse Registered User (4/23/01 12:39:29 pm) Reply	Re: tape on the back of the neck No tape!! Use a portion of your practice time to work on intonation. Play slowly and listen, listen, listen. One thing I find helpful is to play simple tunes by ear, always listening carefully. Play double stops and check against open strings when you're in doubt. These have helped my intonation alot. I'm FAR from perfect, but at least I know when I'm playing out of tune! BTW, my crutch of choice is a chromatic tuner, but even then I don't use it too much (other than for tuning the strings). I find it interupts the flow of my practice session (which is really my toddler's job!)to constantly look at the tuner. I use it when I just can't hear the note. Hope this helps a little.
Ellen G Registered User (4/23/01 2:12:58 pm) Reply	Re: tape on the back of the neck My two cents is that you just have to learn to use your ears. The "meat" of your thumb or fingers can be on tape, but a simple wiggle in one direction or another can make the difference between being in tune or not. And the difference in flexibility of hands also leads to necessary idiosyncracies, particularly with "stiff" adults. Notes in isolation are always a problem unless you have perfect pitch. Notes played against others gives the ear something to compare, and it is more readily discernable if the pitches aren't right. Play against an open string, double stops. I'd recommend a piano but they are most unforgiving. But I really don't recommend chromatic tuners. The violist in our quartet insists upon tuning with one and we spend an inordinate amount of time with everyone's ears arguing with one another because the bow pressure has to be constant in order to hold a "true" pitch. One bow stroke on an open A can run the gamut of flat, sharp, in tune, and each of our ears hears something a little different. So here we are looking at idiot lights. What matters is when we play that the notes sound harmonious against one another. It ALWAYS comes down to your ears ruling when you play, so get used to it. It really is something you cultivate over time. There will probably be certain notes or pitches you are consistently off on, and pay close attention to those to see what the problem is. If you find you're not able to reach the fourth finger notes accurately, perhaps your thumb is back too far and restricting your hand. If your Bb is consistently wrong on your A string, perhaps your thumb is up too far. That sort of diagnostic exercise is what I'm talking about. Be patient, and good luck. E
DoDahlberg Moderator (4/23/01 4:39:05 pm) Reply	Re: tape on the back of the neck Yes. I did use a piece of tape I could feel in the thumb spot of 1st and 2nd position for a while - being of the school of a C hand with the thumb opposite the 2nd finger. But, my reason was this: I played in a terribly out of tune orchestra of kids and adult beginners and I was surrounded by notes of every imaginable intonation interpretation. It was total tonal anarchy! I used it so I could be sure I'd get back to square one every once and a while. It was only for this reason that I used it. Dorie
JanJan2 Registered User (4/24/01 7:23:04 am) Reply	Ahh, now it makes sense! I've been in that kind of cacophony before, and it really destroys your faith in your own intonation. Janet
Andrew Victor Registered User (4/24/01 10:14:04 am) Reply	Re: tape on the back of the neck I've played for a long time, and it always bothered me some that on the cello there is no tactile indicator for first position as there is on violin and viola. On violin and viola, the first postition can be sensed by contact of the first index finger joint area with the nut/pegbox configuration at the end of the neck. Alternatively, the thumb could be "backstretched" a bit to find the pegbox on the other side of the neck - either approach works. However, one would not continue to play with either of those contacts. In the same way, a tape on the back of the cello neck can be used as a "slide indicator" to let you know you have arrived "back' in the first position, but any contact of the thumb with that spot should be ignored while actually playing. You are certainly correct that some people contort their hands in all sorts of ways to maintain contact of the thumb with the tape or "spot" stuck to the back of the neck - and as a result they just can't play correctly. I must confess that after 50 years of being frustrated by different chair heights and endpins sliding on the floor, I have finally put a first-position thumb indicator on the back of my cello necks. What a relief! (Of course the fact that until recently I did not play the cello all that often might play some role in the problem.) Andy
ruthann Registered User (4/25/01 10:51:39 am) Reply	Re: tape on the back of the neck As a teacher, I certainly don't object to tape. The idea of a tactile marker on the back of the neck is a good one, especially for beginners and those learning to shift in and out of first position. A neat trick is to use moleskin sold for shoes. It's sticky on one side and fuzzy on the other - much easier to feel than tape. Now about scale intonation. DO NOT USE A KEYBOARD! Because of the tempering (tuning) of a keyboard, all the notes are a little out of tune with each other. If you check a keyboard against a fairly sensitive electronic tuner, you'll see it. My method, which possibly only works for me, is to combine some sol feggio (do re mi) work by voice and cello. Sing that C Major scale (do re mi) then play it. Record yourself. Listen. Does it sound like a scale? Are your leading tones nice and high? THey need to be to give you an aural sense of key. A nice high B tucked up aginst the C really shouts C MAJOR!!! And that nice high B, so important to a good C Major scale will absolutely NOT match a keyboard B. It'll be high of a B on an electronic tuner as well. Add in the arpeggios (I, IV, V, I) and then some double stops. Nothing like double stops to catch a not quite "on" major or minor third. It is a long and painful process, but to me, intonation is what really separates a good player from a mediocre one. When you can really feel and hear your key, any piece you play will sound much better. I can really tell the difference between a student who actively listens and one who is content to put his fingers in the right spots. So your most important asset for good intonation is a pair of well trained ears. Use all the tape you want, but use your ears as the final authority. Good Luck! P.S. Warm up with the scale your current piece is in right be fore you practice the piece. It really helps. cello_suttonr@hotmail.com Edited by: ruthann at: 4/25/01 10:51:39 am
Andrew Victor Registered User (4/26/01 8:58:40 am) Reply	Ruthann - Keyboard/Intonation, please tell me more Ruthann, I know about keyboard tempering, etc., but since you regularly play in a piano trio, how do you get around this problem you have cited? Andy
ruthann Registered User (4/26/01 9:29:36 am) Reply	Re: Ruthann - Keyboard/Intonation, please tell me more Well, I ignore it! I thought about lowering the leading tones, etc., in an attempt to match the piano. It's just too hard. If you are playing the same note as the piano, as you do in so many of the earlier trios, I agree you have to match. But with the later works, where the celoo's lines are more independant and lyric, you have to go for it. Of course you have to listen to the violin and piano and tune with them... Not much of an answer, I guess. cello_suttonr@hotmail.com
MaryK Registered User (4/26/01 11:12:28 am) Reply	Strange image evoked For a minute there, I had a mental image of myself at my cello, w/a piece of Scotch tape (trademark R) on the back of my neck. Couldn't figure out why anyone would want to do that, then the light dawned. Duh. MaryK