Violin Strings - www.ezboard.com

Internet Cello Society Forums > Instruments and Equipment > Violin Strings
	<< Prev Topic Next Topic >>

Author	Subject
ollec Registered User (4/16/01 4:40:31 pm) Reply	Violin Strings Though this is not exactly cello-related, I thought some of you here might be able to help me: I have ninety-two year-old violin that I inherited from my grandfather. I am trying to learn to play, but not all that seriously (cello takes up most of my time ). Right now I have Thomastik Dominant strings on it. When we got the violin fixed up, the guy at the shop said that Thomastiks were the best strings for old instruments. I am finding them to be too bright and loud, though, and I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions about other strings that I might like better. I don't want to spend a whole lot of money, but I want to get somewhat decent strings that will not be quite as loud and bright as the Thomastiks. I know nothing about violin strings and there are so many options. I would appreciate any recommendations! Samantha Edited by: ollec at: 4/16/01 4:40:31 pm
Dick500 Registered User (4/17/01 9:02:22 am) Reply	Re: Violin strings Dominant violin strings are indeed very popular. But there are certainly strings to be had that carry equally well but don't have anywhere near as much surface sizzle under the ear. What you are hearing as excess volume is probably just the excess brilliance. I would suggest you try one of the following sets: Pirastro Obligato, Pirastro Evah Pirazzi, or perhaps Corelli Crystal. When you have a choice, go with the silver D strings. They have a tendancy to sound darker and less "surfacy" than aluminum-wrapped D strings. Violinist tend to think in terms of complete sets. That's all right for the most part, but here's another idea. I would guess that, on your violin, the G is actually okay, the D (aluminum, probably) is scratchy, the A is tolerable but too bright, and the E would best be used to slice hard cheese at 100 yards. If that is the case and you really feel like experimenting (you are primarily a cellist, after all), keep the Dominant G, get a Dominant Silver D, get a Pirastro Eudoxa Aricore A (a steel-core A which works remarkably well with gut D & G--not the perlon A which comes with the regular Aricore set), and get a Jargar E. (All medium gauge fro starters.) The best thing about experimenting with violin strings is that, by comparison to cello strings, they are soooo cheap. Have fun. Dick
Andrew Victor Registered User (4/17/01 12:06:09 pm) Reply	Re: Violin Strings I have a completely different take on this than Dick does. I was around and playing violin before there were Thomastik Dominants and when they first arrived on the market I could not use them on the violin I had then - the sound and feel were just not right. So I stayed with Pirastro gut-core Eudoxas eventually upgrading to Olives as my fortunes improved (I could never use the less expensive Pirastro Wondertones (Gold Label) on that fiddle either). The reason for the "popularity" of Dominants is purely that they were the only "synthetic" string available for a long time and players and dealers got used to them. While they are good on many violins, they are definitely the wrong string brand for many other instruments. When Pirastro finally put the TONICA brand on the market it worked fine on that violin of mine - and any other I've tried it on - and I prefer its E to the Dominant E. The Tonica E blends well with Obligato and Evah Pirazzi strings. The new Thomastik-Infeld strings are also very fine. They come in a bright (BLUE) version and a mellower (RED) version. Strings of the Red and Blue types can be combined on an instrument to even out the string sounds without mixing brands (as Dick has suggested - not that there is anything wrong with that). The Thomastik Infeld Blue strings are great on that original violin of mine that Thomastic Dominants were bad on, however, the Infeld Red strings are no good on it (I also have an instrument strung with the Infeld Reds - best string I've ever had on it). D'Addario has Helicore ("rope-core" steel strings) that seem to work well on many instruments and have a good sound. There has been some controversy over their newest brand of ZYEX strings. I for one originally found they lacked overtones on many instruments and seemed to be relatively high tension. However, my latest foray into Zyex strings has been successful with the one instrument I currently have them on. Once they break in they seem to stay in tune for ever (I have Zyex G, D, and A on a violin with a different E and it is only the E that need retuning). If a violin has pleanty of high frequency (partials) response it might not need more driving at those frequencies than the Zyex strings seem to provide (a compatriot is using them on an Enrico Rocca, a pricy fiddle). I have five violins strung and no two are strung the same way. I seem to have gotten pretty good at selecting strings for a violin upon trying it out with whatever is on it (provided I've also had some experience with those strings). I have no violins strung with Dominants, although at least four of the violins I have will play acceptably with Dominants - they play better with something else. Some other violin strings, that I've found rather "mellow" (and don't use because of that) are John Pearse, Correlli Alliance, and Larsen. I don't like what I consider "surface noise" from a violin string, but I do like the higher partials (overtones/harmonics) of each note, which help one with "self hearing" in orchestra and other ensemble playing - and I love the feeling of my ear responding to those frequencies. No soft strings for me! Andy P.S. Let me add - that if you are changing out an existing set, start with the worst (playing, sounding, condition etc.) string. You may decide not to change the entire set. Also, the different tension of a single string can change the playability and sound of the remaining strings. P.P.S. I have not found silver d strings to be best all the time or on all violins - for example, on the violin I have strung with Zyex, the silver D was unsatisfactory, but the Al D is great. My Ricky Rocca compatriot, however uses the silver D. So there! Edited by: Andrew Victor at: 4/17/01 12:06:09 pm
JanJan2 Registered User (4/17/01 10:21:40 am) Reply	Surface noise Hi Andy, You've touched on something that has always puzzled/troubled me. Like you, I am bothered by what I too call "surface noise," and have always wondered what causes that. Is it the bow? The strings? And why do I hear it so much more with upper strings than with cellos? Any insights on this are greatly appreciated. Janet
ollec Registered User (4/17/01 3:16:09 pm) Reply	Re: Violin Strings Wow! Thanks, I never expected so much of a response! I found this part particularly accurate: "I would guess that, on your violin, the G is actually okay, the D (aluminum, probably) is scratchy, the A is tolerable but too bright, and the E would best be used to slice hard cheese at 100 yards." Samantha
Christopher Chan Registered User (4/18/01 12:20:49 am) Reply	Re: Violin Strings You might want to try Pirastro Tonica i've heard they are a good alternative to dominants, with their sound being slightly warmer and fuller with more overtones. Also professional violinists that i know prefer an E string that is gold plated. You can read up some more on strings at Ifshin's website. www.ifshinviolins.com/strings.html they back up the tonica recommendation.
cellochris99 Registered User (4/18/01 3:25:56 am) Reply	under ear loudness Could a habitually aggressive playing violinist actually induce some long-term hearing loss from a piercingly loud and bright E-string. I can imagine that it'd be loud since the F-holes are just a few inches from the ears, particularly the left ear. Even playing cello upper range aggressively for long periods of time can induce some ear fatigue, and our ears are alot further from the instrument. Chris
Andrew Victor Registered User (4/18/01 9:17:00 am) Reply	Re: under ear loudness All ears go some as they age. Interestingly, for me it's been my right ear to lose some of its high frequency hearing, rather than the left (even tho it's been hanging over an aggresively-played violin for more than 60 years). My choices are either to block off the left ear a little or amplify the right - to balance the sound in both ears. I blocked the left ear for about 8 years so that it heard about the same as the right - but I missed the sound of the higher partials - so now, for the past 2 years, I've amplified the right ear instead - I just love that feeling of hearing that sound again. Andy
Andrew Victor Registered User (4/18/01 12:56:06 pm) Reply	Re: Surface noise Janet, I would not consider myself an expert on this, but I have some experience in the matter. I think all three factors violin, strings, and bow are involved. In my own mind I sometimes have trouble making a distinction between "surface noise" and a nasal quality. I especially dislike a nasal quality on the G-string of violins - although on the A strings of some fairly decent instruments I have found both a nasal quality and lots of available tone color. I understand that the Capelas were know to be possibly the best Portuguese makers, and their violins had a distinct nasal quality. Some people like it. The primary factor is the instrument itself. A friend, who spent a day at Bein and Fushi in Chicago, trying about $10M worth of instruments one day, told me that above about $500,000 per violin, the surface noise dissappears - so the Strad, Guarneri del Gesu, and Guandagnini violins he tried did not have that, but the less expensive, although fine, instruments did. I believe he told me all the fiddles were strung with Dominants (so that an "even" comparison could be made - personally I think that is a nonsense thing to do!). I've noticed in less costly instruments that making a change in string brands can change the amount of "sandiness" in the sound. To me the "surface" noise sounds like "sandiness." (Or was it a nasal quality?) I suspect that it is in the balance of the various harmonics of the strings in relation to the most effective amplified frequencies of the instrument. I have noticed this sandy sound when I've tried some friends' modern Italian violins in the $12 - $25K class. Personally, I've preferred instruments that don't have that sound under the ear - certainly I don't hear the sound when others play the instruments. Even another friend's Enrico Rocca had that sound when he originally brought it home, strung with Dominants. I have noticd, however, in all fairness, that thes relatively pricy violins (even with that sandy sound) have a very good ability to develop tone colors with changes in bowing poing and vibrato. Finally, I have definitely noticed that different bows and different ways of bowing will affect the sound, both under the ear and at a distance. I do think that the bow stick itself, and the tightness the player has applied to the hair will affect the playing qualities a lot and the sound. Some bows seem to enhance the higher frequencies more and some less - and if a violin already has a lot of high frequency sound, such a bow will just bring it out, while a different bow might help dampen it. This is one of the things one tries to balance in matching an instrument and bow. On a cello, the corresponding partials would be more than 1-1/2 octave lower - so they would not sound so sandy. On the other hand, some cellos definitely have a lot of high-frequency content - Yo Yo Ma's for example. I find the "surface" noise on violins most noticeable on the A string and below, not the highest, E, string. An annoying surface noise (especially on the G string) is particularly noticable on many factory violins in the below $1,000 range. As far as I'm concerned that makes it particularly easy to "unselect" instruments in that price range if one is buying. This characteristic can also persist, to some degree, up to $2,000. In my recent experience with 33 violins in that price range, I immediately "unselected" 90% of the violins I tried. Finally, different peoples' ears have different frequency responsiveness and so different sound characteristics affect them in different ways. My wife is very particular about violin sound - she has very sensitive high-frequency hearing - and too much content in that range bothers her. Andy Edited by: Andrew Victor at: 4/18/01 12:56:06 pm
cellochris99 Registered User (4/19/01 5:56:54 am) Reply	re: surface noise Andy, I'm not an expert in appraising, but I'm curious as to how they quantify an exact sound to $$$ ratio? I know that experts know what they're doing when they price a violin, but do they consider that a brand new violin won't sound as good as a comparitable violin that's 100 years old. For instance, when I bought my cello, it was appraised at $8,000 brand new. But over time, the sound and response improved markedly. In fact, when my cello was new, it exhibited some surface noise and a bit of uneveness in the upper range. However, gradually after a some time of playing, it seems to be steadily increasing more resonate, fuller tone with decreasing relative surface noise, and evenness that it didn't seem to have when it was appraised new. So in other words, would my cello be worth a little more now, since it has a much higher resonance to surface noise ratio, and sounds and plays so much better? Hmmm, I think we've had this little discussion before.. oh well! Chris
Andrew Victor Registered User (4/20/01 8:40:16 am) Reply	Re: re: surface noise Chris,, I don't think they made a conscious surface noise vs. price appraisal at all. It just worked out that way for this range of approx. 100 - 300 year old Italian violins, with the top ancient Cremona instruments (250+ years old) having these properties (hardly anything else sells for more than $500K). I think there are lots of more reasonably priced violins that don't have much surface noise - but may not speak to the back of a concert hall as well, either. When we speak of "surface noise" what do we really mean anyway? I think we are referring to a sound that does not seem to cary as well as the harmonic tones. We are not likely to hear something that has not been amplified by the body of the instrument - so what we are tending to hear are likely some anharmonic higher frequencies that occur when the strings are bowed. If these are a bother with an instrument you play, it may be possible to eliminate or reduce them by selecting different string brands or trying different bows. A better fitting bridge or soundpost might help too - or adjusting the string afterlengths. In my experience, Arcus bows are very effective at eliminating "surface noise" while retaining a rich mixture of harmonic frequencies. At least it is worth a try. Andy
cellochris99 Registered User (4/23/01 5:17:33 am) Reply	surface noise I'm in a way, trying to put what I hear into words, for instance, is that sizzling noise that comes out more noticably on the A string when played closer to the bridge considered a surface noise? I've used that "surface noise" description rather loosely, since I haven't heard that term until I read some earlier posts about strings. Whatever causes that "sizzling" noise, it's a very high pitched zzzzzz noise(albeit very subtle, but there) over the fundamental note. Personally I like the effect, it seems add a bit of intensity to my vibrato in some cases, but I can adjust my bowing to eliminate it for a more fuller rounded sound. I usually don't hear that "sizzle" from soloists, and almost none from Yo Yo Ma. However, I really notice it from cello sections in performing orchestras. Maybe I just need to get my hearing checked! Chris
Dick500 Registered User (4/23/01 10:03:12 am) Reply	Re: Surface sizzle Some bows will make more surface noise on some instruments than others. Trying different bows will often reduce the noise. Some strings, particularly Dominant A's, will have a noticeable sizzle on some instruments. Trying different strings will often reduce the noise. Sound is not a factor when determining price. The list of criteria consists of: maker, country of origin, individual maker vs workshop, condition, rarity, popularity in marketplace. Old Italians are expensive because people will pay that much and more for them. They are also expensive because the maker is long dead and it takes a dead guy a very long time to make another one--i.e. the labor costs are very;, very high. Dick