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claud19 Registered User (4/13/01 3:26:17 pm) Reply	ethics of buying? This might be a silly question, because I'm willing to plunk down a large chunk of cash and should be able to shop around to my heart's content, BUT... I'm currently renting from a local luthier (spelling?). The instrument is ok, but not great. I feel that recently I've moved to a new level of playing and commitment. I'm definitely sticking with this (not a whim), and have been playing just over two years. I told my wonderful teacher I was thinking of buying a cello. She's VERY serious about only buying from a licensed luthier (I think she loves saying this word!), and gave me the name of 4 of them that she likes in our area (Long Island, NY). My question to all the cello friends is: Is it ok for me to call all 4 of them and say "My teacher is xxx. I'm in the market for a cello, this price range, blah blah blah...?" I worry about calling luthiers A, B, C, and D, and "putting the word out" to them. Each one will do searching around or something, looking for what I want, or at least keeping an eye out for it. So what happens when luthier A finds my dream cello at a good price? Then I call luthiers B, C, and D and say,"Never mind, I found one elsewhere"? Won't B, C, and D be peeved that I wasted their time? I guess it boils down to the fact that these luthiers are not your commercial music store in the mall kind of businesses, and I would get different personalized service. Do I have to pick one luthier and stick with him/her? Do they understand the dilemma? I don't want to offend, but I do want the largest selection for this huge purchase. Help!
mcello Registered User (4/14/01 7:44:38 am) Reply	Check out all of them Definately check out as many sources as you can. I spent several months and even know people who shopped for two years for a cello. The luthiers know the competition, they want to sell their instruments, but they also know that you are spending a lot of money. I am fortunate to be very happy with my instrument 2 plus years later, but I had the opportunity to play another instrument by the same maker shortly after I purchased mine, and it did not have the same wonderful quality of sound. Find out if any luthiers from other areas of the country are going to show their instruments near where you live or go on a trip and check others out also. Talk with other string players and find out where they got their instruments, get as much information as you can!
Andrew Victor Registered User (4/14/01 4:13:34 pm) Reply	Re: ethics of buying? The "ethics" of commerce is actually an oxymoron. But, nevertheless, the priciple is: "buy low, sell high." So, as a buyer your are duty-bound to buy as low as you can. Who licenses a luthier? It's the same community-government entity that licenses barbers, hot-dog vendors, and dog groomers, isn't it? I think you are best off dealing with a shop that has very a experiencd and trained owner, manager, or employees. A big "violin shop will have lots of instruments for sale, most on consgnment. They would typically cover a range form several thousand to several-hundred thousand dollars. This should cover your range. The only way to tell if an instrument is for you, is to play it - and play it over its entire range (which, after 2 years of playing, is likely to still be beyond your entire range of playing). If I were on Long Island, I would not exclude theenormous potential of nearby New York City. I bought a very reasonably priced, new Chinese cello (list priced at $3,200) just over a year ago, and I also tried much older cellos priced up to 12 times higher. I felt that the cello I got was not only good value for the price but also good in playing qualities and sound quality among all the cellos I tried. I also found that the bow I used was very important to the playing qualities I got from the instrument - and I felt my 1896 Albert Nürnberger bow was not up to the challenge - I ended up buying a Coda Classic bow at the same time - and have since added some other bows to further enhance my sound. I also had two other cellos and was getting this new one to achieve certain characteristics I did not have. I think it is worthwhile to point out that my older cellos are now much better than they wre before, after I had a luthier do setup changes (new bridges and soundposts) to both the older ones. The changes this, as well as a light-weight tailpiece, composite endpin, and optimized string selection can make can be similar to moving over $20,000 to $50,000 among the cellos you test at a luthier's shop. I think it behooves you try cellos way beyond your means before you buy because you may well end up satisfied that a (much) less expensive instrument you select meets your criteria as well as anything you tried. Just over a month ago I selected a low-priced violin (max $1,600 for violin, bow and case and sales tax) for a family member to give as a gift. I tried 33 instruments at 5 shops and rejected 30 of them immediately as I tried them. I was able to try the three finalists together, easily rejecting one, and then had a hard choice only between the last two. Of these one was brand new and the other 73 years old. I felt that if a brand new instrument could be that close to the older one, it was likely to only get better - and so I chose it. After getting it home, I restrung it according to my perception of its tonal characteristics, with great success in improving its tone even more. Unfortunately as one goes to higher prices, fewer instruments are likely to be rejected that easily. (In this same general time frame, I also had the opportunity to try something of the order of $3 M worth of other violins - including Antonio Stradivari and Andreas Guarneri and several other lower priced, but still expensive and well-known makers (and I have 5 violins of my own that I like very much, in addition) - so I had some idea of "the" range of differences going into these pre-purchase violin trials.) This is just an example that works for cello too. Good luck! Andy P.S. I almost always negotiate on price after I make a selection. You know there is some extra margin there because the shops will usually offer a discount if the buyer selects a case and bow at the same time as the instrument. Only on items that I know are deeply discounted to I forgo the pleasure of a little haggle. I think one can usually negotiate new instrument and bow prices by 10% to 30%. On consignment items, the owners might have left less margin for haggling, since the dealer will be taking a pretty good percentage. Edited by: Andrew Victor at: 4/14/01 4:13:34 pm
claud19 Registered User (4/17/01 12:22:29 pm) Reply	strings and bow? Thank you both for your excellent and well thought-out advice. I feel much better now about consulting various sources. Your answers brought up yet another question, this time about bows and strings. It's clear that the right strings and bow can make a huge difference in the sound of a cello. So when I'm going to these different shops, and try a cello that's OK but doesn't strike me as fabulous, how do I know if it would be better with better strings? I can't imagine that the shops would have them strung with excellent-quality strings, and I don't have a bow of my own yet, just my rental. Do you buy the best bow you can afford first, before starting to seriously consider individual instruments? And do you buy a set of excellent strings and restring each one that you take home to try? Is this considered standard practice? I feel like I might reject a good candidate without realizing its full potential. Of course, my teacher will be trying out the ones I bring home before I buy, but a so-so sound in the shop could cause me to not even consider a potential gem, right?
Dick500 Registered User (4/17/01 2:49:18 pm) Reply	Re: strings and bow? A lot of your questions are regularly asked and answered over on the Instruments & Equipment board. So it may be a good idea to visit over there too. Reputable dealers know that they do not have the only shops in the world and, if they want your business at any point in the future, they will not be upset if you find the current instrument of your dreams elsewhere. If you are going to buy both a cello and a bow, my advice is to find the cello first and then match a bow to it. Bows that play well on one instrument may not play at all well on another. I have seen people invest heavily into a bow that later had to be replaced because the new cello didn't like it. If you think that the cello could be tweaked a little with different strings, by all means ask the dealer to do so. You may both end up being surprised. A good way to find out whether you want to do business with somebody is to see how much time and effort they are willing to invest in educating and helping their clients. Dick
lblake Registered User (4/17/01 11:04:35 pm) Reply	Re: strings and bow? As always, Andy and Dick make many excellent points. I'll share with you some of the thoughts I remember having while and since I was in pretty much the same position as you are. One thing I realized while I was shopping for cellos the first time, is that it seems to be a pretty old-fashioned business. I was floored at how honorable it was. It IS all about earning your business. Anywhere I've been, I've received no pressure, and plenty of help... but no opinions. They show excellent restraint, in fact, in making you decide for yourself what is most important to you, and what best suits your taste. They WILL help you understand what to consider (tone, responsiveness, playability, etc...), but they probably won't tell you what they think about any given cello. (even if you beg ) In a few years, you may want to upgrade, and at that point, you will know a lot more. Therefore, it is in any shop's interest to deal fairly and honestly with you. Granted, dealers ARE running a business, so sure, they'll not be putting themselves into the position to lose money just so you can have the perfect cello. Also, sometimes they have to put a certain amount of work into a cello in order to make it sellable - and work costs time and money. they generally choose their fixer-uppers wisely, but still - it may partially explain some prices at some shops. Also, a shop has instruments to sell, but also has bows, and strings, and repairs, and a myriad of other accessories and services. And what's more, they may have your next cello to sell. You'll want to buy from where you trust them, and where you are comfortable - as long as they have what you want. They seem to truly earn your business. Also, I figure, there's only so much they can make on a cello they buy for $1500. On the other hand, there's probably quite a bit more they can make on a cello they buy for $25,000. That seems like another reason to me for them to deal honestly with you, especially in the lower ranges. Regarding whether or not they set up cellos at shops with good strings - in my experience, they very often DO have excellent strings on a cello. Last time I was at Shar, almost every cello I tried was set up with at least some strings having Belcantos... that was when they were very new. Set up involves the choosing of strings. A cello will be more likely to sell if it is well-set-up. It's in their interest to be diligent and ethical, the way I see it. Maybe sometimes they don't have the best setup possible - but if they know what they're doing, they'll have a pretty darn good setup. On the other hand, the best set up, according to you, may be only a mediocre set-up according to me. Shops also tend to know what's popular (sound-wise), and they're wise to stick with that. Also, it doesn't hurt to ask if they'll try different strings for you. They probably will. So, my suggestion is - concentrate on what you want, and try as many instruments and then bows as you can get your hands on. I agree with Dick - buy the cello, then the bow. Play with a bow in the shop - not your rental bow. A typical rule I've heard for how much to spend on a bow, is 1/3 of what you spend on your cello, in case you wonder. Ask for a bow that tends to play well on most cellos while you are testing. When I have tried cellos, and didn't bring my own bow (or, even when I did), I was generally given a bow with a value around $1000, and I was playing on cellos in the $2500 - $10,000 range. In any case, take the opportunity of shopping to learn as much as you can. And, go back and re-try cellos, if you can. What sounds beautiful the first day may sound awful after a week of trying different cellos. Plus, remember, you will be very likely dealing with people with an awful lot of knowledge to share. And if you can get your teacher to join you on your shopping trips, DO! Or, at least bring along a friend who can help listen across a room, and give you feedback. Better still, bring a friend who plays cello, too. That second set of ears can really help. Good luck, and have fun! By the way... I bought both my first cello and my first bow at Shar.
Andrew Victor Registered User (4/18/01 10:21:26 am) Reply	Re: strings and bow? Claudd, I certainly agree with all the responses you have gotten here. I just wanted to add that a friend who is just starting cello lessons in middle age came over yesterday with his low-value rental cello ($1,050) and bow - and the bow (which appears to have a little age on it) is actually quite good although probably of low value. So it is possible to have a playable bow that is not expensive. I have experienced what I consider likely to be at least a doubling of the sound volume from a cello by using a different bow. However, that might not be the best bow for all cellos - perhaps just for one that needs doubling of its sound output. A lot will depend on the "frequency response characteristics" of the bow and of the cello. Sometimes one bow played a certain way on a particular cello wl have a greater tendency to "squeak" a certain note than a different bow. You may really have to work it all out. I think it is probably not possible to make really good choices until one can play the full range of the cello with some effectivness. (Unfortunately, at that stage, budget constraints can actually become a big hindrance - and on lots of cellos (as far as I'm concerned - even up into the middle 5 figures) you have to learn to "play around the hurdles." Of course, if you can pay as much for a cello as you would for a house, these problems tend to go away - at least in my limited experience.) Andy P.S. I really enjoy reading what lblake writes, she learns so fast - and so much - and is so helpful.
karenlee Registered User (4/18/01 3:29:51 pm) Reply	Re: strings and bow? How far does the better-bow effect go? Will a $2000 bow make a $2000 cello sound better (assuming it a bow compatible with the cello)?
lblake Registered User (4/18/01 10:20:55 pm) Reply	How big a difference can a bow make? This is an interesting question. the first part of my answer would be: You might be surprised. the second part of my answer would be: the best way to understand is to try it. But, don't be shy about the price range. Try everything you can. Just don't get attached. Bow shopping is one of the most fun things string players get to do, in my opinion. I had a lot more to say, but I think I rambled enough for this thread in my last response. P.S. Andy - awwww shux.
Dick500 Registered User (4/19/01 11:05:33 am) Reply	Bow price ratio A rule of thumb (and all of the other fingers too, for that matter) that I have found which works well as a starting point is to think of the price of the bow in terms of about 25 percent of the value of the instrument. This is, of course, not valid if either the instrument or the bow are carrying a lot of their price as "antique value" or if either one is seriously underpriced due to condition. A bow (let's of course assume one that is compatible with the instrument) which is considerably less than 25% runs the risk of not bringing out everything that the cello is capable of--thus, in effect, devaluing the usefulness of the cello. On the other hand, a bow which is a whole lot more than 50%, say, might bring out everything that can possibly be squeezed out of the cello, but at a cost which is nowhere equal to the results. Remember, that if the instrument is only capable of so much, you may well be looking to replace it later sooner or later. You, of course, are getting better and better all the time, right? And if you have sold the farm to buy a bow for the previous cello, the next cello may absolutely hate it and you'll simply end up having to spend all that money all over again. This is not a pleasant thought for someone like myself who grew up having to pinch the penny. (Old habits die hard.) I view instruments and bows as tools which have usefulness to a developing player both in the present and into the forseeable future. If you never think of any instrument or bow as being the "last one," you will be safer in the long run. So my recommendation is for you to match a $400-800-or-so bow to your $2,000 cello if at all possible and put the remaining $1,200+ into the bank as a good starter for the inevitable next cello and bow purchase. It will happen--you will "get the bug"-- believe me. Dick
karenlee Registered User (4/19/01 11:59:52 am) Reply	Re: what next? Thanks. The cello was $3000. I am on my fourth bow. It is a W Seifert. I feel this bow is mushy. I want to try something resilient but firmer. There was some discussion tha that maybe this bow just needs rehairing. I am still at the better bow bug stage. I am a beginner, but I have a new teacher, great teacher, and am all enthused. What next? any suggestions?
claud19 Registered User (4/19/01 1:05:05 pm) Reply	good advice Dick, Thanks for the advice about the Equipment board. I've been looking around a bit there, but am very intimidated by the amount of information. Perhaps after I get embroiled in the search I'll know have some more knowledge and will get more from the postings there. It seems to be the consensus to buy the cello first, so that will be my plan. This process is so overwhelming, but I feel better knowing there are knowledgable people like yourself out there who are willing to help. Claudine
claud19 Registered User (4/19/01 1:17:45 pm) Reply	To LBlake Thanks for your really thorough reply. I look forward to the day that I can give something resembling cello wisdom to others. Your story is encouraging. It's good to hear about someone who was in the same position I am in. I'm definitely heartened by your good experiences with more than one dealer. I figured they wouldn't give opinions...it always seems to be the way. Sometimes I think life would be a lot simpler if only people told you what to do! And that's good news about your having found the string setups to be good ones. You're totally right...it behooves them to make the instrument sound better in the shop, to tempt us to buy them. My experience has only been with rentals, and I've found them to have the worst possible strings on them, across the board. The kind my teacher says are only fit to hang pictures with. And going back to retry them...of course! But I don't know that I would've thought of that on my own (duh!). I was thinking of it as trying to rule out as many as possible to narrow the field. I will surely also drag an unsuspecting friend--ideally a musical one. I don't have any cello- or string-playing friends yet, but I will definitely not buy a cello until my teacher tries it. Ahhh! I'm getting all excited just thinking about it. I will try Shar, and I'm going to try Ellen's cellos2go as well. I'm really looking forward to playing lots of different cellos in the looking process. Thanks again for all your help!! Claudine
bridge Registered User (4/19/01 4:12:41 pm) Reply	Bows 'n' 'cellos ARGH!!!! I always hit enter to get from the subject line into the comment section and inadverantly post an "NT"! Edited by: bridge at: 4/19/01 4:12:40 pm
Dick500 Registered User (4/19/01 4:10:49 pm) Reply	Claudine-- I generally hang out in the I & E board because that's where I find I can get really watered up about equipment-related questions. If something shows up over there that you find puzzling, just ask. I'm sure that you'll get a kick out of watching to see which one of us can get your post answered first. However, I have started spending more time here, too. CBN is also a nice place to be and I'm enjoying myself here although, if left unchecked, I'll inadvertantly turn this board into equipment Q&A too. People who know me are aware that I just can't help it. :-) Dick
bridge Registered User (4/19/01 4:11:16 pm) Reply	Bows 'n' 'cellos Well, just to weigh in on the bow to cello ratio thing. As a point of reference/comparison: My cello: $2,500 My bow: $600 When they showed me the cello (actually four of the same make/model) they gave me about four to six bows to try too. They ranged from about $400 to $600. Also, I decided on the cello (among the four) in about 20 minutes. It took me over an hour to decide on the bow. They are not to be underestimated.
lblake Registered User (4/19/01 9:14:19 pm) Reply	Re: Dick -- I share your affliction.
lblake Registered User (4/20/01 6:40:52 pm) Reply	Re: what next? OK - since nobody else has done it yet.... i just can't resist. Where to go next? Why, ARCUS! www.arcus-bow.de/ Don't exclude carbon-fiber bows from your search. They can really be quite exceptional, and while they are not necessarily the same from bow to bow, either.... they ARE much closer than wooden bows by the same maker or shop. Ellen G at cellos2go has quite a collection of bows to audition, including the Arcus and some Bergs. (at least, she did). Shar also has a nice bow approval service, as do a few other places, I think. I've tried Shar's service, myself, and I've also tried some of the bows from Cellos2go. Both were great experiences. I've tried a bunch of carbon-fiber bows. My favourite by far has been the Arcus Concerto. And, by now, I've had the opportunity to try more than just my own (I tried Andrew Victor's, too). I realize if anyone has read my responses to this question before, I sound like a broken record. So, I feel obliged to clarify: I have no vested interest in Arcus. I just have always been overwhelmingly impressed with their bow, and I haven't stopped feeling that way about it yet! It may not cover every need, but it's pretty darn amazing, especially for a student. Also - the Arcus is an especially stiff carbon-fiber bow. Read Andrew Victor's composite bow review: members.aol.com/bowedstri...eview.html It's for violins, but the information carries over quite a bit. I better not get started as to why I like the Arcus so much.... it'll never end, and I have to get some sleep tonight! But, let me just say, there's the right thinking behind it, in my opinion. Definitely try it if you can, and give it a good week's try, as it IS very different than many bows, so might take some getting-used-to. I want to get up to Michigan again, and try those Finkel Hybrid bows! I tried to get up there this week, but my boss wanted to miss this morning's meeting that I got stuck in, so he went instead! boo-hoo! I've actually heard 1:3 for the bow:instrument ratio, myself. but, then, I'm sure I'd like 1:1 a lot, too. Or....2:1 - now that would be nice. Edited by: lblake at: 4/20/01 6:40:52 pm